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Thomasso

If I manage to master high-end add-on planes, would I be able to fly them in real world?

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I'd like to see the reverse situation. I'm told it's a lot easier that way!


Mark Harris.

Aged 52. 

P3D,  & DCS mostly. DofReality P6 platform partially customised and waiting for parts. Brunner CLS-E Yoke and Pedals. Winwing HOTAS and Cougar MFDS.

Scan 3XS Laptop i9-9900K 3.6ghz, 64GB DDR4, RTX2080.

B737NG Pilot. Ex Q400, BAe146, ATP and Flying Instructor in the dim and distant past! SEP renewed and back at the coal face flying folk on the much deserved holidays!

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I'd like to see the reverse situation. I'm told it's a lot easier that way!

Great find! I laughed so hard at his astonishment to the throttles moving. And I would actually disagree with you, I think it would be more difficult for a pure-bred 737 pilot to try to land an a320. The FBW and different flight rules (such as FBW basically switching off near touchdown) would be harder to get used to than the dynamics of an all natural 737 in my opinion.

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I only watched from just prior to the landing (isn't that the most important part?  :LMAO:   ). A couple things I noted:

At about 9:40 he makes a callout regarding being cleared to land. B)

Impressive was his debrief / self-eval (starting about 14:40). He says in part, "It was very hard, yes, because obviously I have no knowledge whatsoever of the seven three, but I do know the basic stuff which is very common in everything and that's what I actually what reverted to, and just operating down to the basics, down to the common procedures, the common things that we all do at the same places and the same, you know, in any aircraft. So that's what I was using there rather than specific things that I wouldn't know because obviously the aircraft is completely different.

Just wow.
 

The OP wanted to know if high end sim add-ons would make him a better prospect for real training later on. The answer to that simple question is yes- to an extent. I would stake my reputation on the more immersive the Sim the better the level of help.


Mark, I think he was asking "if I master (a PMDG or A2A airplane) will I be able to fly the RW counterpart?" I answered wrt the C172... you, Ian and others re: heavy(ers). I don't see how anyone could refute the statement that practice with a good sim is going to help / be beneficial toward real world training.

The one caveat with the training done in the sim... were there negative training aspects that took place. Without an instructor, I find it hard to believe that there won't be some things that will have to be unlearned when flying an actual aircraft.
 

Recently reported..http://www.foxnews.c...t-killed-9.html


Improperly configured aircraft happen with all aircraft 'sizes' - and have resulted in fatalities. AOPA's Bruce Landsberg went so far in his article Flaps and Lapses to suggest not lowering the flaps for a preflight check and explains why he feels they should be left up. I didn't want students (a student pilot) doing touch and goes - and one reason was the potential for having the aircraft improperly configured during the go.

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Improperly configured aircraft happen with all aircraft 'sizes' - and have resulted in fatalities. AOPA's Bruce Landsberg went so far in his article Flaps and Lapses to suggest not lowering the flaps for a preflight check and explains why he feels they should be left up. I didn't want students (a student pilot) doing touch and goes - and one reason was the potential for having the aircraft improperly configured during the go.

The point all along is that simmers, who have less RW experience than students, will have a difficult time knowing where or when the aircraft is misconfigured and/or if they are "behind the aircraft". Happens to experienced high time, highly trained Pilots, so to assume a simmer won't repeat the same mistakes is to ignore reality. :wink:

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Best Regards,

Ron Hamilton ASEL

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Ron,

 

I'll bet you a cup of coffee that the desktop simmers couldn't even get the seat adjusted. :smile: 

 

blaustern


I Earned My Spurs in Vietnam

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.... desktop simmers couldn't even get the seat adjusted. :smile:

 

blaustern

 

 

Looks like you've just got lots of free cups of coffee! :cool:  (as a desktop simmer, I'd buy you one because I've no idea how to adjust the Boeing/Airbus seat!! Adjusting the rudder pedals in K13 and K21 gliders, that I can do :wink: )

 

Until now, the scenario of not being more or less the same physical dimensions as the incapacitated crew you're taking over from, has not been addressed. A most excellent point, Wilhelm.

 

It would not matter if I knew what to do with the plane if I could not fit into the seat!  :fool:


Mark Robinson

Part-time Ferroequinologist

Author of FLIGHT: A near-future short story (ebook available on amazon)

I made the baby cry - A2A Simulations L-049 Constellation

Sky Simulations MD-11 V2.2 Pilot. The best "lite" MD-11 money can buy (well, it's not freeware!)

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A couple things I noted:

At about 9:40 he makes a callout regarding being cleared to land. B)

No relation, I assure you. For one, he landed on the runway. As anyone who has seen my sim landings can tell you, that's not always where I end up LOL. This is one instance where the bard's dictum on roses and names does not hold.

 

Still, I found that observation sufficiently funny that I had to break my silence in this thread.


R. Francois Myburgh

 

"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them."

Baruch Spinoza (because to quote Bertrand Russell would have been offensive)

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He he he. I mentioned seat adjustment a bit earlier. With 11,000hrs and the last 3 years on Boeing 737- I couldn't adjust the A320 seats either! Well, give me a few minutes to figure it out. The MCP equivalent is not intuitive. Buttons you pull as well as push? Just getting brackets made up to fit my TPM and Switch panels to my rig.  Back to Light aircraft flying in the Sim this Winter..... 

  • Upvote 1

Mark Harris.

Aged 52. 

P3D,  & DCS mostly. DofReality P6 platform partially customised and waiting for parts. Brunner CLS-E Yoke and Pedals. Winwing HOTAS and Cougar MFDS.

Scan 3XS Laptop i9-9900K 3.6ghz, 64GB DDR4, RTX2080.

B737NG Pilot. Ex Q400, BAe146, ATP and Flying Instructor in the dim and distant past! SEP renewed and back at the coal face flying folk on the much deserved holidays!

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Great find! I laughed so hard at his astonishment to the throttles moving.

When you spend years with your hand on a set of throttles that don't move by themselves, when they suddenly do, it is more than astonishing, it's downright creepy. And as for that massive great big yoke in front of you moving around all on it's own, that's pretty scary too, especially when it catches your meal tray and starts tipping your food all over the floor!

 

And I would actually disagree with you, I think it would be more difficult for a pure-bred 737 pilot to try to land an a320. The FBW and different flight rules (such as FBW basically switching off near touchdown) would be harder to get used to than the dynamics of an all natural 737 in my opinion.

And that's why people have trouble converting between the two. The FBW system is designed to make the aircraft feel like a normal aircraft. The more you worry about what it's doing, the more brain power you're wasting on not flying the aircraft. I saw so many ex Boeing guys get their knickers in a twist worrying about what 'mode' the FBW system was in instead of just flying it like a normal aircraft.

 

The FBW system doesn't basically switch off on touchdown, it blends into ground mode and you won't notice it. It blends between all kinds of modes during flight and if you ever find the aircraft not responding to your inputs in the correct sense then you're approaching a limitation of the aircraft (whether you realise it or not). In normal flying you don't notice the FBW system doing anything, push forward for down, pull back for up, left for left and right for right.

 

In 11 years operating it I never once saw it do anything against what I asked, sometimes it was a little slow to react (or just slower than I would have liked) but it never did the opposite. In the sim we obviously get much closer to the limitations of the aircraft and so you would sometimes see the FBW system kick in here and there but without any FBW knowledge at all you could usually just fly the aircraft and as it came out of the protection it just carried on as normal, exactly as it was designed.

 

I went from 11 years on an Airbus to the 747 and initially worried what my flying skills would be like after not trimming and having a FBW system for all that time. Do you know what, after one 3 hour sim (with another long term Airbus guy) we both pretty much had the trimming licked and neither of us noticed the lack of FBW system. We were reacting in the same way to the same visual cues and the aircraft was responding as we were expecting. Obviously it felt different, the main change being the amount of movement of the controls, the airbus is flown with relatively small wrist movements on the stick, the jumbo is a two handed full arm movement affair. Neither wrong, neither right, just different and both requiring a certain amount of experience to get a feel for it.

 

This is why I said in all my replies to the original question, DO NOT FLY THE AIRCRAFT, you haven't had the experience to get a feel for it so you won't know how much force/movement to make to get the response you want, and with no (or little) training you don't really know what response you want anyway.

 

Both aircraft types are 'natural', different without a doubt but both perfectly natural to fly.

 

Changing aircraft type is always a bit difficult and whenever the pressure comes on you'll always revert to your old (or even first) type. I've bought so many beers downroute for talking about ECAM in a brief, called them spoilers or (even worse) calling out the colour of FMAs! All in good humour, they're all just aeroplanes but my word do I miss my table...

 

The MCP equivalent is not intuitive. Buttons you pull as well as push?

It's way more intuitive than the Boeing system once you've learnt it and had 20 mins in a sim to play with it. Push to give the aircraft control of that function (via the FMGC) or pull (towards you) for you to do it. Simples!

 

Ian

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Thanks for the input Ian, though not really the place to get into an  A vs B discussion. I've only flown the B for a couple of year sand other types before that. -Like many "non" Airbus pilots though, my fears are not about FBW per se. The Emb170-190 is FBW, the Boeing 777 is FBW too. ~Yet they both have yolks that provide feedback of control displacement. This is more "normal" to me but does point to something not considered here before in that our Sim programs and hardware do not provide this at all. Hence the lack of a closed loop.

 

Conversely, and almost in perfect irony, the Airbus FBW system, with it's disconnected, non moving primary controls can be mimicked perfectly by our kit. The PC joystick is lifeless, just provides inputs and if you plug two in you can move then in opposite directions if you want! I know other aircraft fake it, but the Airbus doesn't try. 

 

On a windy day into LBA, I can feel the yolk and throttles moving away indicating the autoflight system's efforts and a subtle reminder I'll shortly have to do some brisk work! I appreciate an experienced Airbus operator copes too, but it's a worry to us mere mortals.

 

The most important point though, is that they're all just aeroplanes and pitch/power = performance works every time. Keeping discussions civil is the key.

 

Your analysis of differences and the transition was very informative. Thank you.


Mark Harris.

Aged 52. 

P3D,  & DCS mostly. DofReality P6 platform partially customised and waiting for parts. Brunner CLS-E Yoke and Pedals. Winwing HOTAS and Cougar MFDS.

Scan 3XS Laptop i9-9900K 3.6ghz, 64GB DDR4, RTX2080.

B737NG Pilot. Ex Q400, BAe146, ATP and Flying Instructor in the dim and distant past! SEP renewed and back at the coal face flying folk on the much deserved holidays!

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Yoke...


Fr. Bill    

AOPA Member: 07141481 AARP Member: 3209010556


     Avsim Board of Directors | Avsim Forums Moderator

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The real question is:

 

"Can a reasonably experienced pilot trained in the operation and systems of an advanced aircraft fly and safely land an advanced desktop sim?"

 

:Tounge: 

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The real question is:

 

"Can a reasonably experienced pilot trained in the operation and systems of an advanced aircraft fly and safely land an advanced desktop sim?"

 

:Tounge:

Yup, RW not so much... :wink:


Best Regards,

Ron Hamilton ASEL

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