Takeoff at flaps 15

[pilot3033 5]

I'm gonna go with NORCAL or SOCAL for that one...HWD or WHP perhaps?

 

SOCAL! VNY as it happens, and formerly out of SMO. 

 

This.... I like to save my flight (I use the same saved flight name over and over: _ENR738) after I configured for takeoff and before levers up.  Especially when I am going to fly something like the LOOP DP out of KLAX.  If things get ugly, I'll come back later and load that pre-departure flight and fly it over and over until I am comfortable with my performance. This is an ideal opportunity that the simulation affords. Take advantage of it.

 

I like to save the flight before TOD too, for much the same reason.  A few days ago going into PHOG in the soup I blew it on descent planning, seems that if you don't clean up the legs page to mate the RNP02 approach to the STAR VNAV will end up about 3000 ft higher than desired.  That got reloaded and reflown with much better results.

 

I enjoy the heck out of simulated airline ops, but for sure equally enjoy scenario-based challenges. Fail an engine on V1, fly an LDA down to minimums with a crosswind in the jet, pull off a few touch and goes...

 

Next time you find yourself in that PHOG situation, though, see if you can still make it down by entering a hold. Usually a STAR has a few charted ones. You can also continue the approach and go missed at the final approach fix and sort of "vector" yourself to get setup again. Think of it as "unusual attitude training" but for the sim.

 

Matt Kramer

[JoeDiamond 67]

 

 

and because a flaps 15 takeoff is relatively rare

 

For what it's worth, while flaps 1 and 5 are the most common takeoff settings flaps 15 takeoffs aren't that rare, especially this time of year as the tempratures increase.  Departing 9R from ORD often calls for flaps 15 if you are headed for the west coast.  Takeoffs from KSNA always call for flaps 25.  DCA and LGA will often use 15 or 25 for the transcon flights as you are heavy with fuel.

[downscc 1,327]

 

 

Next time you find yourself in that PHOG situation, though, see if you can still make it down by entering a hold.

 

I spotted the problem early enough to be at the right altitude by the time I reached FAF without upsetting the pax, one reason to stay ahead of the airplane.

 

 

 

Takeoffs from KSNA always call for flaps 25.

 

The KSNA-PHOG trip in a B738 is always a challenge. Neither TOPCAT nor TOPPER allow for the TO-B bump thrust, I assume that it might be used often during the summer.

[Nick Dobda 24]

 

 

How is it screwing things up? I'm just curious as to what the frustrations are.

Simple answer is pilot error. I am limited to what I can see on my monitors. Looking down I completely lose everything, basically flying blind. I can't feel what the plane is doing. When I pan and click, I'll have one hand on the wheel, so keeping it in the exact same spot is difficult, slight variation while I'm working somewhere else and the plane is moving where I didn't want it to go, and I have no way of feeling where its going. 

 

As for the overall a few of you guys nailed it here:

 

Nick is overloaded with a flaps 15 take-off in the first place. He is simply unfamiliar and unpracticed, nothing more time in the sim won't fix.

I think I've done maybe 5 flaps 15 takeoffs in the last year and a half, which leads me to this:

 

Maybe start with a slower less complex aircraft.

 

Thats 5 flaps 15 takeoffs over an estimated 300 or so takeoffs since I started in this plane. But you are onto something. Im a relative newbie at VATSIM, only a few months there. Which is why you're seeing questions related to ATC worked in into the NGX forum. Folks very helpful on here, Kyle is a great resource. 

 

Mouse look. Hold down SPACE and then move the mouse around to look around.

 

One hand on the space... one on the mouse... thats 0 hands on the wheel! I have a hard enough time center wheel clicking and looking around with one on the wheel.

 

 

 

Your aircraft if properly trimmed will not fall out of the sky if you look away for a few seconds

 

If I'm deviating on VATSIM you'd think the plane would be better off falling from the sky with some controllers. To their defense though, if you screwed it up as much as I have while learning, I'd be putting alot of people at risk.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

One hand on the space... one on the mouse... thats 0 hands on the wheel! I have a hard enough time center wheel clicking and looking around with one on the wheel.

 

If the aircraft is in trim, that isn't really a problem.

 

I also mapped a button on my mouse to emulate the space bar so I only need one hand, but that shouldn't be a huge issue. If letting go causes you issues, then you're not operating optimally.

[Nick Dobda 24]

 

 

In fact if properly trimmed you can let go of the yoke for a few seconds and it will have little to no affect.

Yes, but an accelerating plane is accelerating out of trim. As I'm seeing it, the flaps 15 takeoff is alot of manual flying till you're cleaned up, then you can turn on the AP. And in the course of that manual flying, I at the very least have to roll the MCP speed up from V2 to above cleanup speed. 

 

Every flight from your first until your last should be a learning experience. Experience and confidence is all you are lacking. You will be fine.

Thank you, thats kinda my mantra. I try to learn every flight and always learn something. 

 

I suggest just doing the take-off portion over and over again until you get a flow down.

Yes, I've pretty much decided for awhile I'll be flying out of Midway on a full plane. Seems those runways are short enough to warrant that flaps 15 most of the time. 

 

Lastly, look into FS2Crew

I thought about it, but what's going on now, and feeling overwhelmed at times, this is what I want. This is why I bought this plane in the first place. Very rewarding and educational. 

 

 

If letting go causes you issues, then you're not operating optimally.

Obviously I have some issues to work out. I'll take everyone advice here (thank you) and get it right.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Yes, but an accelerating plane is accelerating out of trim. As I'm seeing it, the flaps 15 takeoff is alot of manual flying till you're cleaned up, then you can turn on the AP. And in the course of that manual flying, I at the very least have to roll the MCP speed up from V2 to above cleanup speed. 

 

It will become increasingly out of trim, but if it gets too out of trim in the amount of time it takes you to mouselook down, click, and mouselook back up, there's - again - an issue.

 

I'm not seeing how a Flap 15 takeoff is too difficult, or requiring of much attention.

 

You can't turn on the AP until you're cleaned up?

 

You have to manually set V2 to clean?

[Nick Dobda 24]

•  

  You can't turn on the AP until you're cleaned up?

• Yes according to the procedure I looked up they suggested.
•  
• Set the MCP to V2 +15/20.
• Fly the Flight Director cues to Acceleration Height.
• At Acceleration Height, push yoke forward reducing pitch.
• As forward speed increases you will quickly pass through the schedule for initial flap retraction – retract flaps 5.
• Dial into the MCP speed window the appropriate 'clean up' speed (reference the top bug on the speed tape of the PFD, usually 210-220 kias).
• Continue to retract flaps as per schedule.
• After flaps are retracted, engage automation (if wanted) and increase speed to 250 kias or as indicated by Air Traffic Control.

   

  Raises another question, what is the norm for when its time to click on the AP?

   

  Manually set V2 to clean... yes (I think)  if tyou choose to fly manually... what happens is once the flaps start going up, you'll get a A145 (or whatever V2 was) flashing in the MPC. Once the AP goes on then setting the speed isn't an option anymore assuming your also engaging VNAV

[Irishcurse 234]

 

 

 

 

If I'm deviating on VATSIM you'd think the plane would be better off falling from the sky with some controllers. To their defense though, if you screwed it up as much as I have while learning, I'd be putting alot of people at risk.

 

You are putting nobody at risk. Unless you are traveling at better than mach 2 you won't deviate from your course in a matter of seconds. I just departed from LAS a little while ago in the 772. I didn't engage AP until around 8000'. I let go of the yoke for more than 10 seconds more than once while doing something completely unrelated to flying. The aircraft stayed on course and on track for the climb because it is trimmed properly. That's with real world weather through AS16. The world won't end. You just think it will. You need to stay ahead of your aircraft. Don't chase it. It will come with more time. You can't hurt anyone unless you fall out of your chair. In that case you will get hurt. Nobody on VATSIM will. Put "Newbie" in your remarks section of your flightplan. Its not a badge of shame. It helps controllers know you are new so they know you might need more attention/help. We all started some where. I think I kept "Newbie" in my remarks for about 6 months. That was some 14k+ hours ago

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Yes according to the procedure I looked up they suggested.

 

Nope.

 

Note the use of "suggested."

 

 

 

Raises another question, what is the norm for when its time to click on the AP?

 

When the SOP you want to listen to allows it. I usually do it at about 1000' to help manage my workload if I know it's going to be high.

 

 

 

Manually set V2 to clean... yes (I think)  if tyou choose to fly manually... what happens is once the flaps start going up, you'll get a A145 (or whatever V2 was) flashing in the MPC. Once the AP goes on then setting the speed isn't an option anymore assuming your also engaging VNAV

 

Why not just arm VNAV?

(Some operators don't - I get it - but when you aren't subject to the requirements of random people coming up with procedures for procedures, why not write your own?)

[Nick Dobda 24]

Why not just arm VNAV?

 

Well... Cause I've never thought of that. If I do that... then it'll bump on it's own? Problem solved if thats the case.

 

You are right about the SOP... I'm not following anybodies really, just coming up with my own. If it works then I'm going with it. I'd just like some input and suggestions (I don't want to do anything thats not out of the "norm")

 

 

The world won't end. You just think it will.

 

Not going to end, but clearly I'm doing it wrong - which is why I came here for some suggestions. Obviously the point has been driven home how important trim is, but several suggestions and some of Kyles questions are exposing what I am doing wrong and how to correct it. 

 

 

I think I kept "Newbie" in my remarks for about 6 months.

I do have newbie there. But a good plan will be to fly a flaps 15 a few more times before introducing vatsim into the equation. 

[JoeDiamond 67]

 

 

JoeDiamond, on 04 Aug 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:


Takeoffs from KSNA always call for flaps 25.



The KSNA-PHOG trip in a B738 is always a challenge. Neither TOPCAT nor TOPPER allow for the TO-B bump thrust, I assume that it might be used often during the summer.

 

I should clarify my earlier statement.  Our takeoff performance system handles SNA differently from other stations.  The system will start off with 26K, flaps 25 and will bump up to 27K if needed for the planned payload.  You will never get anything less than 26K, flaps 25 with our system at that station.  Last month I ferried an empty airplane from there and it will still give your 26K/F25.  It was quite the rocket on that takeoff.  Yesterday's SNA-ORD flight was at the other end of the spectrum, 27K, flaps 25 with the bleeds off, and we were within 100 pounds of the runway limited weight.

 

In my experience 27K has been the most common takeoff thrust I've used at SNA.  If you get a lighter payload or are doing one of the shorter legs like PHX or DFW you can see 26K.

[skelsey 765]

Some thoughts (with my usual caveat that I am not a 737 man so I can't speak too specifically):

 

Firstly, if the aeroplane is significantly away from where you left it after spending three or four seconds glancing down at the radio panel, then it's not anywhere near being in trim and I'd suspect your trim technique might need some work. Select the attitude you require, hold it whilst the speed settles down, then trim to relieve the control pressures. It sounds a little like you are trimming a little too hastily. If you try and fly the aeroplane or make small pitch changes with the trim then you will very quickly end up chasing it all around the sky.

 

However, I think more pertinent to this particular situation: three letters. CRM. This stands for "Cockpit Resource Management" and it's a big watchword in modern airline operations. In modern times it's morphed a little -- originally it stood for "Crew Resource Management" and was to do with adjusting the authority gradient in the cockpit a little in order to empower junior members of the crew to voice concerns and challenge the Captain if they felt something was going wrong (you could say that for some of the old Captains in the sixties and seventies, CRM in fact stood for "Captain's Right Mate"!).

 

These days, however, it is as much about making the best use of all the resources you have available to you - human and technological -- to achieve a safe and efficient outcome to the flight.

 

So my question is -- why do you need to hand-fly it? It sounds like there's a heck of a lot going on - short runway, unusual takeoff config, busy airspace, lots of frequency changes, challenging SID route, low stop altitude etc etc etc. You are, as you quite rightly acknowledge, operating single-pilot in an aeroplane designed for multi-crew operations. There's no need to be Chuck Yeager!

 

I'm all for hand-flying, and maintaining good practice in hand-flying, but part of good airmanship -- and good CRM -- in a modern airliner is knowing when to use the appropriate level of automation for the situation. Personally, if I've got a complex SID to fly and I'm departing in to a busy ATC environment, I get the autopilot in fairly pronto. That allows me then to concentrate on the other stuff -- cleaning the aircraft up, changing frequency, talking to ATC etc without having to worry about whether I'm going to bust the stop altitude or miss the turn -- because I've set all that up in advance.

 

The automation is there to help you. Use it! If you're off on to UNICOM, it's a straightforward procedure and there's no traffic around, then knock yourself out and hand-fly all the way to cruise if you like.

 

It's worth pointing out that this is not unrealistic, either. Remember CRM -- you could indeed, in a multi-pilot environment, choose to hand-fly the whole of that busy departure, and as PF you might be all fine and jolly. But spare a thought for the poor bloke/lady sat next to you, whom you've effectively dumped all the work on to! Whilst you sit back following the FD without a care in the world, your mate in the other seat is now:

• Talking to ATC
• Dealing with flap and gear config changes
• Hammering on the FMC
• Twiddling knobs on the MCP
• Liaising with the cabin
• Reading the checklists
• Performing all of their normal flows
• And trying to monitor your flying as well!

By putting the A/P in, you take over responsibility for the MCP/FMC etc, and so relieve the workload on your mate sat next to you. In busy airspace, that means both of you have more capacity to monitor ATC transmissions and keep your eyes out for other aircraft and hazards.

 

There's an excellent blog from a real B767 Training Captain about the subject here: https://mmsba.wordpress.com/2013/09/03/the-automation-paradox-making-training-relevant/ -- and this old Continental training video is good as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX1p-uB6Tco

 

I'm going to also be a bit controversial on the whole "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" thing and reproduce a post I wrote on the VATSIM forums on this subject recently:

 

People talk a lot about "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" on the network. Which is all well and good, but I will set out why I think that in normal operations it's often taken too literally.

 

"Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" is not, I would suggest, a strict sequence of actions to be carried out at all times. It is a reminder to the pilot that, especially in an emergency situation, one must prioritise flying the aeroplane. In other words, if you're on fire, there's no point running out of airspeed, stalling and crashing because you were concentrating on getting a Mayday call off. Get the aeroplane under control and pointing in a safe direction first (i.e. away from the ground/not at a mountain!), then once the situation is stable you can start worrying about talking to ATC.

 

However, in normal operations, I will pose you the question: is it more important to carry out an ATC instruction immediately or correctly?

 

Clearly, instructions must be complied with promptly. But prompt does not mean instant, and it is, IMHO, far more important to get it right than to get it first.

 

Why do we read back instructions? To ensure that we have received them correctly (and, indeed, that the correct thing was transmitted in the first place and to the correct aircraft, and the correct aircraft has received the message). Thus, readbacks are very important.

 

Now -- back to the question of promptness. How long does it take to read back a typical instruction on voice? Two seconds? Maybe three if it's a really long string of instructions?

 

Ask yourself -- will it make any difference if I initiate this action instantly, or in two seconds' time? Arguably if it really will cause a problem -- then the controller has left it far too late to issue the instruction in the first place.

 

99% of the time, the aeroplane will be flying quite happily with the autopilot engaged. It is stable, it is not going to fall out of the sky, and it should not be pointing in a direction that is going to take it in to imminent danger unless its path is changed in the next two seconds. So aviate and navigate are, in the short term, already taken care of.

 

So instead of immediately hammering keys on the FMC or twiddling knobs on the MCP -- before you've even confirmed that you're doing the right thing and that the instruction was intended for you -- take two seconds to read the instruction back.

 

This accomplishes two things -- firstly, and perhaps most importantly, it verifies that the information you have received is correct -- and secondly, it eases the R/T congestion by preventing the situation where everybody waits patiently, hears nothing and then everybody talks at once.

 

Once you have read the instruction back (and I find it much easier to jot down the relevant info as I say it, rather than trying to scribble whilst the controller is talking) you can then manipulate the automation at relative leisure, safe in the knowledge that you're not about to carry out an instruction which you thought was for you but in fact was for someone else, and that nobody's waiting on you for a readback.

 

Of course, in real life, in a two-man cockpit 99% of the time with the autopilot engaged one pilot is going to be reading back whilst the other manipulates the controls and once the readback is correct and the FCU is set the two sides of the flight deck can come "back together" to verify that the information that the inputs are correct. But whilst we are normally operating single-pilot, we have to come up with strategies to verify those inputs ourselves -- and readbacks are a crucial part of that.

 

Text, of course, is a different matter -- the instruction is sitting there in the window, easily able to be read and inputted before typing a response. But on voice, in normal operations, I would always encourage the readback first!

[skelsey 765]

Also, something else which came to mind reading your original post....

 

 

 

I'm pitching down to accelerate, and trying to manually turn to the desired heading... and trimming... trimming... now I'm accelerating better pull the flaps up to 5. And now im accelerating, and probably overshot my desired heading... and I have no flight director to follow... so I'm trying to get back on that... and messing up my pitch so now I might be decelerating so nose down to pick up some speed.. Then I'm hearing the alt reminder that I'm approaching 3,000 that I was cleared to. trimming... trimming... (now Im doing all this without ATC, it sure would suck to have to tune the radios and contact approach while all this is going on). ok... now Im rapidly approaching 3,000, so Im nosing down so I dont go over it.. and now I'm accelerating very rapidly over flaps up.. so move flaps to up. And now I'm wildly out of trim, so Im really trying to trim it out so I can get the AP on and back in control of the aircraft. Oh crap, now I'm descending...

 

Now, this is partially down to experience -- you sound like you are well behind the jet, and that is never a good place to be -- but largely I think you could probably do with some work on your instrument scan.

 

Developing a good, solid scan pattern is essential to accurate instrument flying. If I'm brutally honest, HUDs and glass cockpits are probably not the best place to develop it -- I'm writing a ME/IR course for FS pilots at the moment and much as I love the G1000 fitout in the default Baron, we'll be using the steam-powered version precisely to develop good scan habits (and also because it's easier to do partial panel stuff!) but it can still be practiced.

 

There are many possible scan patterns, but a good start would be a basic radial scan.

 

Start by checking the ADI for attitude. Then scan your eyes across to the altimeter, and check your altitude. Then go back to the ADI and check your attitude again. Then from the ADI go to the VSI, then back to the ADI, then to the HSI, then back to the AI, then to the tun co-ordinator (if fitted - not so much on a jet like the 737) then to the airspeed, then back to the ADI... and so on. You can modify the scan based on what you're doing -- so, for instance, in straight and level flight you'll be paying more attention to the altimeter and the HSI than to the airspeed, for instance, though this should also be checked periodically, whereas in a climb you're going to be scanning the airspeed and altitude much more frequently than the HSI, for instance. Don't forget to check the engine instruments every so often as well!

 

Practice building your scan rate up -- keep your eyes moving all the time. You're not really looking to read specific values all the time -- you're looking at the trend rate of needles and for pointers to be in the right place (one of the reasons why it's more difficult in a glass cockpit!). It takes concentration, but the skill of instrument flying is to be able to read the whole panel rather like reading this post -- you don't read each letter individually, you read a bunch of letters together as a word.

 

The better your scan becomes the more accurate your flying (especially without the FD) will become, because you will have a much better picture of what the aeroplane is doing and you will be a bit more ahead of the jet.

[Nick Dobda 24]

All great advice and I'll read the posts a few times to digest it all. I made the flight tonight(well currently enroute to Detroit). I loaded the vnav at the runway and it armed. As I'm rolling though in toga, the vnav disengaged and would not re engage. After takeoff, just kept wings level and trimmed to a consistent climb.. engaged at, then vnav and hdg... Pulled flaps up crossing speed bugs. All was just fine.

 

I am wondering though, why is vnav disengaging? I'd like to try a manual flight out but would,like to have those director bars to help with the vertical.

By director bar I mean the dashed line on the hud