Cusomter Service in FS Payware...

[Guest ha5mvo]

Jeroen,I totaly disagree!People are the same people. They are what they were during the FS98/00 days.What has changed is the environment.People didn't start to charge because they were offended by a few posts. They did so because they wanted to make money!The company that you represent, for instance, is not a bunch of freeware developers that are out there to make a point to all those rude guys....It is a business par excellant, with everything that goes with it.With Addon prices peaking to unprecedented hights of $55, $60 and even more, a decent and polite support is an essential - not a luxery.and if it takes to answer one hundred times the same question - then that's what it takes!Freeware developers gladly do it on their forums - why shouldn't the commercial companies?By the way, strange as it may sound, the people who will end up dictating the tone and temperature of the forums, are the support people - not the users.It the nature of their response that determins wether charged posts will explode of be defused (just look at ActiveSky forums and the way issues are handled there).Unfortunalely many commercial developers are yet to learn that.Best regards//Michael

[KERNEL32 496]

>>Some felt they wanted some other form of compensation>rather>>than a "thank you" once in a while and started charging, the>>rest stopped.>>As was written in a most recent issue of AOPA's Pilot>magazine, desk top flight simulation has "really" become a>simulation of real world counterparts, and can be used in many>ways, for real world practice. >>And since this is true, the simulation can only get more>complicated, which requires more dedication, more hours, more>research; and basically has to become the "day" job for many.>Not only that, the design complications have become so great,>that much of the programming/design work is broken up to>numerous indivuduals with particular talents.>>Is this good for flight simming? Certainly!!!, as it only>get's more realistic. Besides, I'm still waiting for that>perfect simulated Garmin 1000 glass panel, that I figure could>take months of real hard work; and of course I'd pay for it!>>Side note: talk about a day job.....>It seems that many simmers EXPECT 24/7 customer service>hours!>>L.AdamsonHi, with all due respect I do agree that the amount of resources going in to an FS add on product are certainly growing, as is the funding to create, release and maintain that product. This means costs go up, staff, etc. Just like a REAL and GROWING business right? Is there still an excuse not to fund some R&D toward customer relations? Such as picking up a local copy of "CEO for Dummies" at the local Barnes & Noble? For a text book example of NOT how to run a business, there are quite a few examples right here in our hobby.So with that, I continue to get the feeling that -->some<-- people think this genre is the EXCEPTION to proper customer service and treating customers as, well...customers. This is totally unacceptable and will not allow this genre to grow to a healthy state. How many newcomers (a growing business NEEDS newcomers right?)will actually take the kind of abuse SOME of the representation presents in the support forums or private e-mail? Maybe I am way off here, but my sense is not too many! In fact as the FS community/customer base grows, so do the amount of complaints (as if it were'nt too evident lately?)...Oh well this (conversation) is probably all for naught as this FS add-on genre is really unique and competition isn't a real factor. IF competition ever becomes a factor we will see a lot of fallout and a complete face lift on customer service that is FOR SURE!

[mgh 89]

As I explained in a previous posr which you may have missed:"The poster - collezio - may have only made two posts but they both asked the same question, even though it had already been answered by John GoodwinIn a thread - Winter Schedules Update - someone asked asked on 23 October:'When can we expect the winter schedule update?"John Goodwin replied on 23 October:"It will come when it comes"collezio responded on 24 October with:"Also I am convinced that he will come when it comes , but you have one idea of release date?"collezio then started another thread - Winter - on 31 October and said:"Some news on Winter schedule ???"'In this case it was not a matter of using the search. The poster already knew the answer but kept on asking the same question - even starting a new thread. As I said, I'm suprised the answer was so polite.

[maxter 0]

>Bull!>>Its all about hype. The payware companys are the reason people>complain.>>Regards>Dennis WaggonerWell said Dennis... How many times have we seen a product get HYPED to the eyeballs and then get delayed (for possibly a valid reason) only for the developer to get all uppity and slam some poor individual for wondering if the hype will be delivered at some reasonable time in the future.The guys who don't have to defend themselves are those who just deliver without all the hype.Cheers,Chris Porter:-outta

[Guest IanP]

People started charging because the time, effort, tools and research required to develop a product that would be aceptable to the "community" became probitively expensive.If you seriously think that people are becoming millionaires selling FS add-ons, you'd be sadly mistaken I'm afraid. Pity, or I'd be getting into it myself! :-hahCheers,Ian P.

[Guest ha5mvo]

>If you seriously think that people are becoming millionaires>selling FS add-ons, you'd be sadly mistaken I'm afraid. Pity,>or I'd be getting into it myself! :-hah>>Cheers,>>Ian P.Ian,That's completely irrelevant. A business is a business wether or not it turns you into a millionaire.Most jobs, by the way, won't turn their holders into millionairs.can I use that excuse next time someone pi$$es me off at work? ;)//Michael

[Guest IanP]

I was attempting to exaggerate in an amusing light. It evidently failed. ;-)The situation right now is that 99% of flight sim developers are trying to hold down at least one other job to pay the mortgages and put food on the table. Back with FS5, we were happy to have a 757 model when FSFS came out - we didn't care that we were flying it with a Lear panel. These days if you tried to sell some of the "top flight" FS98 addons, let alone FS5 or 95, you'd get hammered (see Abacus Airbus thread for details) - the expectations have moved on.With increased expectations comes increased pressure, complexity and cost. "Close enough" isn't good enough any more. I beta tested on a project where we were yelled at for having the wrong size oil cooler on a repaint that a customer did by reworking the base textures! The repaint was excellent and the text file clearly stated that it was his work, had nothing to do with the product developer and it was on the wrong model of the aircraft, but that didn't stop the complaints.It's the usual story... Most users are happy and say very little. Then there are a very vocal minority who never shut up and drive everyone else up the wall. Unfortunately, the majority suffer because of the minority.Cheers,Ian P.

[Guest Dasher7]

Hi Tom!I understand what makes you react, but I'll try to present an other side of the dilemma, here, and actually I think we're both aiming for the same goal, reaching it by different approaches:You wrote:"I know software is different, and I also know flight sim payware is a unique market, but does that give these vendors authority to treat us customers this way?"Well, they haven't treated any customers at all, have they? They are telling their customers a fact/policy/info based on their experience with - customers !First of all, I simply can't understand why anyone could feel offended when they (or their religion/sex/whatever) are not personally targetted? I just don't understand this, it is really not far from being offended by a talking parrot. It is not actually speaking to you personally, although you may walk past it, look at it, and then be called an old one-legged pirate, or whatever. Jean Baudrillard wrote [eg. in his book "America" www.epinions.com/content_163725414020 ] that what is typical of a true consumer society is the kind of detached McDonald's smile that is obviously NOT personal, rather completely detached from any personal relation. The salesman is not smiling at YOU, but smiling at your money, being trained to act like a smiling monkey, or talk like a parrot. (Yep, been there, done that, very phony concept all together.) Baudrillard calls it a "simulated smile", eg. like FS, it's not a REAL plane, but if you are willing to fool yourself, go ahead and think it is real. I prefer a REAL smile and a REAL plane. I'll never want to buy a smile (you can't, of course!) and I'll probably never have money enough for a REAL plane :) If the payware vendor says something rather rash (or, rhetorically rather funny in my view, in this instance) it's because that vendor feels that his integrity should not come from the monkey-smile thrown bootlickingly and dishonestly at the customer to get his money. They probably figure that trading is a give and take relation that goes beyond the McDonald's smile, thus they are actually being respectful, treating the customer honestly, like a friend you shout at, then play ball with. Since they're discussing a coming product, no one can claim that they are mistreated since noone actually paid for it yet! Otherwise it would be different, of course, eg. like not accepting criticism of an objectively faulty product. The writer Edward Abbey (the late Thoreauvian) said about his obstinancy in the armed forces, refusing to salute the uniform, like he was told: "I'll salute a man anytime, [even his enemy] but dxxxxx if I ever salute a uniform."To me, the McDonalds smile is actually more offensive than polite, it's completely dishonest and thus offensive. (Disregarding that a salesperson may certainly smile honestly, as one person to another). Of course, to reach this conclusion one has to completely reverse the logic of much modern management practices. Like the burgerchain (in London, or is it the US, don't remember?) where they actually directly offend the customer, because customers are generally so fed up with slick salesmen that it feels like a relief. Actually, this whole issue is what created the American cliche about the offensive French waiter. Of course, from the supposedly rude waiter's standpoint (indulging in the cliche, here) he's just being honest and real to everyone! Offend him, or treat him rude, your 10 Euro's are not going to buy his respect, he will treat you like you treat him. To me, this is actually as respectfully and honestly human as you can be! Thoreau, the arch-American, would agree.I hope I'm making sense here, I'm not ONLY being polemic :) Happy flights you all, Dasher7 PS: Can't help it, I'm a philosophy/literature NERD ;)

[mgh 89]

A poster on another forum said he'd down loaded a .zip file and wanted to know how to get the files into FS. Two of us replied replied suggesting there'd probably be a read-me file in the zip and he should extract it and read it. His reply was:"Cheers Guys. There was a READ ME file but I just wanted to get on and play. Now sorted. Thanks again to both."

[Guest IanP]

Ian P buries his face in his hands...There are times...?Ian P.

[greeneg 0]

There certainly are......:-beerchug Ed GreenKCLThttp://www.panelshop.com/DEV.jpg

[alastairmonk 0]

"It's the usual story... Most users are happy and say very little. Then there are a very vocal minority who never shut up and drive everyone else up the wall. Unfortunately, the majority suffer because of the minority."Too right !I provide support at a number of Forums, and it seems obvious that at most the bulk of the "technical support" is actually being provided by the "ordinary users" who are chosing to help rather than the paid members of the publishing companies or software authors.The benificial result is that there is a large pool of experienced (and not-so-experienced) users who between them can supply an answer to most questions. And, in this "global community" this also means that, with the various time zones, the answer(s) come faster than waiting for the daylight hours from a particular time zone.The down-side is that most are the replies are from "ordinary users". This means that, as in the communities at large, you're going to get the full range of personality types, some of whom understand such concepts as tollerance and patience, and appreciate that not everyone speaks good English (including those that should as its their native language .....) and some that don't, or have a far smaller tollerance of the lazy and the impatient. Just as in real life, there are those that take obscure pleasure in insulting everyone else and/or have a very black-and-white outlook on the world (the everyone-who-disagrees-with-me-is-wrong brigade) or think that the poster in question is an idiot and feels it necessary to tell them.Individual concepts of what is "good manners" also varies wildly, both in the original posters (I have a problem so fix it now) and in the responders. Some, clearly, have no grasp of the concept ! Few respond well to those that "demand" rather than "ask" or who disparage a product because they cannot get it to work, either due to their own incompetance or some technical problem associated with their specific hardware. Cultural differences also play a part - compare the "personalities" of those living in the USA with those in mainland Europe or the UK or Australia (yes, they're different.)This is human nature, and is not going to change anytime soon. Personally I see no reason to be out-and-out rude to anyone whether posting a question or a reply, and usually choose to ignore a message rather than respond to some idiot/troll/illiterate "teen" who has no concept of structured sentences, punctuation or the like. Others take a different tack, based on their ideas about what is acceptable.Should everyone be at the very least civil to one another ? Absolutely. Commercial authors need to realise that if a large number of users are experiencing the same problem then there probably IS a problem that need to be fixed. And users should understand that this fix may not be produced overnight. Posting the same question six times on every Forum is just annoying, as is a payware author who refuses to address a clear problem.AlastairUxbridge, UK.

[Guest]

One thing you don't mention is that the fact that answers are often provided by people who aren't recognisable as tech support for companies often obviate the need for official support staff to reply.As a result they may appear to be inactive when in fact they just didn't see the need to add anything to a reply because it was already complete and the problem solved.We all appreciate this mightily, please don't refrain from attempting to help each other for fear of putting the (semi)official techies out of a job :)

[Guest Dasher7]

Just trying to have a good time, that's how I talk with my friends, we call it having a good time. And yes, a pint in one hand makes it even better, sometimes even brings it about. :-beerchug, y'allDasher7

[alastairmonk 0]

Quite so. There are actually very few questions that can be answered only by the "Management", and, as far as I'm concerned, if a solution to a problem is given it shouldn't matter whether it is from an "ordinary simmer" a "semi-official techie" or from a member of the paid staff. Alastair