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Flyinside + VR + P3D v3.3 experiences and questions and cfg tweaks

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i'm wondering if the Rift sharpens them

 

Well done for pushing through the rebuilding of your VR system. It inspires me as I also do the same. I think VR is actually designed for people that want to fly GA. Tube liner pilots really don't need VR.

 

On the sharpening/clarity side of things, the resolution of both vive and rift are the same. The only possible difference is if there is something in the focus mechanism of either headset that improves focusing.

 

Here is the crunch. I'm almost sure that if people want to fly ORBX quality scenery in VR, they are going to need either an SLI rig or a preferably overclocked 1080. The reason is that the image quality is just barely acceptable on FlyInside max resolution (3840 res). Any graphics card lower than those specs would be fine for default scenery without adding a lot of shadows etc but not Orbx scenery.

 

On a water cooled 1080, I'm finding that the Rift can lock to 90fps pretty much everywhere and on full P3D GPU settings (not the CPU settings) including most shadows.

 

You have to split your thinking between CPU and GPU limits. In VR they are largely separate problems.

 

On my overclocked i6700k I have had to drop from 35 internal limit to 25 internal limit to keep the same CPU settings in P3D (traffic etc). This is exactly what Dan said would happen. Flyinside chops off 20% or so in CPU limited simulator frames.

 

BUT.

 

Since the headset framerate is locked on 90 (GPU), head panning is so smooth with no stuttering or juddering, that it doesn't matter if the simulator is internally locked at only 25.

 

All the eye strain I used to get on flat screen, was because I was focusing on a flat image close to my head that stutters away on a low GPU frame rate as well as low CPU framerate with all sorts of monitor refresh dramas and TrackIR dramas that go along with a flatscreen.

 

In the Rift, I'm finding that focusing on infinity is much more relaxing for my eyes, my distance vision is improving in the real world, and because the flyinside GPU frames are locked at 90 on my 1080 rig, there is virtually no eye strain.

 

The other really good thing is that since we don't need Vsync, there is no input lag problem, and locking the sim internally at 25fps is actually very smooth and responsive (for the purposes of general aviation). At 25fps internal lock, the CPU can keep up better with the work load and you can start adding more CPU intensive stuff like traffic.

 

Best of luck with setting up VR. Honestly, if you want ORBX and visuals similar to how you had it on a monitor (but with just barely acceptable resolution clarity) an SLI rig or 1080 preferably overclocked rig is needed so that you can enable the flyinside 4xoversampling and lock to 90fps headset frames.

 

NOTE: the flyinside "import panels" feature can have a seriously bad impact on frame rates. I only use the built in simulator panels (kneeboard etc). Importing panels is too much load on frame rates unless you are flying in default scenery or on lower upscaling resolutions.

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Well done for pushing through the rebuilding of your VR system. It inspires me as I also do the same. I think VR is actually designed for people that want to fly GA. Tube liner pilots really don't need VR.

 

On the sharpening/clarity side of things, the resolution of both vive and rift are the same. The only possible difference is if there is something in the focus mechanism of either headset that improves focusing.

 

Here is the crunch. I'm almost sure that if people want to fly ORBX quality scenery in VR, they are going to need either an SLI rig or a preferably overclocked 1080. The reason is that the image quality is just barely acceptable on FlyInside max resolution (3840 res). Any graphics card lower than those specs would be fine for default scenery without adding a lot of shadows etc but not Orbx scenery.

 

On a water cooled 1080, I'm finding that the Rift can lock to 90fps pretty much everywhere and on full P3D GPU settings (not the CPU settings) including most shadows.

 

You have to split your thinking between CPU and GPU limits. In VR they are largely separate problems.

 

On my overclocked i6700k I have had to drop from 35 internal limit to 25 internal limit to keep the same CPU settings in P3D (traffic etc). This is exactly what Dan said would happen. Flyinside chops off 20% or so in CPU limited simulator frames.

 

BUT.

 

Since the headset framerate is locked on 90 (GPU), head panning is so smooth with no stuttering or juddering, that it doesn't matter if the simulator is internally locked at only 25.

 

All the eye strain I used to get on flat screen, was because I was focusing on a flat image close to my head that stutters away on a low GPU frame rate as well as low CPU framerate with all sorts of monitor refresh dramas and TrackIR dramas that go along with a flatscreen.

 

In the Rift, I'm finding that focusing on infinity is much more relaxing for my eyes, my distance vision is improving in the real world, and because the flyinside GPU frames are locked at 90 on my 1080 rig, there is virtually no eye strain.

 

The other really good thing is that since we don't need Vsync, there is no input lag problem, and locking the sim internally at 25fps is actually very smooth and responsive (for the purposes of general aviation). At 25fps internal lock, the CPU can keep up better with the work load and you can start adding more CPU intensive stuff like traffic.

 

Best of luck with setting up VR. Honestly, if you want ORBX and visuals similar to how you had it on a monitor (but with just barely acceptable resolution clarity) an SLI rig or 1080 preferably overclocked rig is needed so that you can enable the flyinside 4xoversampling and lock to 90fps headset frames.

 

NOTE: the flyinside "import panels" feature can have a seriously bad impact on frame rates. I only use the built in simulator panels (kneeboard etc). Importing panels is too much load on frame rates unless you are flying in default scenery or on lower upscaling resolutions.

 

 

Actually, big update here..

 

The short of it.. the Rift IS sharper, enough so it warrants dedicating the Rift for the Flight Rig and keeping the Vive in the living room for now, with the possibility of selling the Vive later if the controllers + sensor coming this fall equate to what the Vive currently has going on (and you can play Steam VR with the Rift etc)..

 

I'm not sure why, but it just truly is.. right away on the default flight sitting in the jet, i noticed sharpness in the buildings on the left that wasnt there before.. the flyinside menus were easy to read now.. and i'm still one notch down from max res in the flyinside settings.

 

The ground objects were sharper..

 

Overall, i'd say maybe 10% sharper.. still blurrier than a 1080p screen, especially off in the distance, but much more "doable"/ " livable"..

 

I havent tried my orbx regions just yet and i turned off shadows and such.. still set on unlimitted in sim.. getting say 44-52 for the sim (i still have overclock off) and 80-90 for the flyinside value..

 

When i tried a limiter of 30.. it was worse.. i was hitting maybe 18 fps avg in the sim and 70-90 otherwise.. but that was with the vive.. ill have to try again and maybe 25 too

 

That brings me to the fact that the rift also seemed smoother right off that bat.. 

 

I still get the shudders when panning with my vision left to right (at times).. it really doesnt seem to matter if i lower settings in the sim either, though i havent gone crazy low just yet.. i need to turn the overclock back on and double check.

 

Hoping i really dont need a 1080, after having just got the 980ti .. we will see.

Awaiting the leap motion too.


MSI z690-a Unify; 1000 watt evga SuperNova Platinum; 12900kf at 1.255 adaptive LLC6, auto avx, auto Pcore, E-4.0ghz, Ring-4.1ghz, PL 241watt (Cine96c, games 83c case side On); DDR5 Gskill F5-6400J3239G16GA2-TZ5RS  at 6400mhz autovolt, Kraken x73 360mm; Thermaltake v51 Case; Gigabyte 4090 OC;  VR-Varjo Aero;  AstronomicallySpeaking:

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I still get the shudders when panning with my vision left to right (at times)

 

Yep, that is probably because of GPU issues if you have up-sampled too high (like the 3840 whatever setting is). It won't be the simulator.

 

To isolate simulator stutter from headset stutter, put your plane in a turn over the scenery you fly and keep your head still. If the terrain stutters during the turn, that is because the CPU is overloaded.

 

Unlimited frame rate is good if you are flying in a straight line most of the time. Problem with unlimited frame comes when you need to do a lot of turning, because then the frame rate will fluctuate wildly as the scenery moves.

 

Locking the frame rate internally is fine in VR. Don't be put off by locking at 25fps because in VR 25fps is still smooth since the underlying framerate of the headset is (should be) locked on 90fps.

 

25 frames a second is 1/25 of a second slices which is even good enough for aerobatics. In combat simulators, 25fps would be too low though.

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Yep, that is probably because of GPU issues if you have up-sampled too high (like the 3840 whatever setting is). It won't be the simulator.

 

To isolate simulator stutter from headset stutter, put your plane in a turn over the scenery you fly and keep your head still. If the terrain stutters during the turn, that is because the CPU is overloaded.

 

Unlimited frame rate is good if you are flying in a straight line most of the time. Problem with unlimited frame comes when you need to do a lot of turning, because then the frame rate will fluctuate wildly as the scenery moves.

 

Locking the frame rate internally is fine in VR. Don't be put off by locking at 25fps because in VR 25fps is still smooth since the underlying framerate of the headset is (should be) locked on 90fps.

 

25 frames a second is 1/25 of a second slices which is even good enough for aerobatics. In combat simulators, 25fps would be too low though.

 

Thanks, yeah ill definitely be trying a few variations to rule things out.. i'm pretty sure head held still there was very little jutter on the default flight area.. ill try some orbx tomorrow..

I also have to work out an annoying glitch where often I lose the calibration on my yoke, with or without using ch manager, or a random pull to the right, sometimes not visible in the control surfaces either.. still some testing to do there, most likely not related to anything vr.

 

 

Another question I had was regarding the bindings for functions.. i only have a keyboard/mouse + ch flight yoke and pedals (i do have 3 saitek panels, but i'm thinking i'll sell them in favor of the leap and maybe mouse worst case, staying completely in the sim from here on out (anyone disagree, or do many ditch the physical panels for full VR).

 

So on the bindings.. since i dont have a hotas or anything like that, what are most people binding to the ch yoke (and maybe i could use the x1 controller for some functions sitting on the left of it i guess, poor mans hotas).


MSI z690-a Unify; 1000 watt evga SuperNova Platinum; 12900kf at 1.255 adaptive LLC6, auto avx, auto Pcore, E-4.0ghz, Ring-4.1ghz, PL 241watt (Cine96c, games 83c case side On); DDR5 Gskill F5-6400J3239G16GA2-TZ5RS  at 6400mhz autovolt, Kraken x73 360mm; Thermaltake v51 Case; Gigabyte 4090 OC;  VR-Varjo Aero;  AstronomicallySpeaking:

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Interesting thread, thanks for sharing your experiences.

 

Now that VR headsets are appearing in stores here in the UK, I thought I'd go down the Google Cardboard route first to see if VR was going to be for me, it's only like £10 for a headset to get started.

 

The Google apps are basic but give you a good introduction.

 

I then installed Riftcat and the VRidge app on the phone to start using the Carboard like a Vive or Rift, albeit with the problems you'd expect streaming the video image over wireless. It's not practical as a full time solution, but it does give you an insight into what a Vive or Rift will be like without shelling out £800

 

I managed to get Prepar3d working and......I just don't know if VR is going to improve the experience of Prepar3d as the technology currently stands, for me anyway.

 

I agree with the statement above that it's only really for GA flying. I went over to GCN airstrip and flew around the canyon for a bit. I had to switch to cockpitless straight ahead view as the cockpit was stopping me from being able to focus on the scenery outside, everything was double vision.

 

It's very impressive, the lenses scale everything up so that you really do feel like you're flying amongst enormous towering mountains, but I personally don't think it's worth the investment for me for flight simming.

 

Riftcat have some bundled "games", one is a simulation of driting along a river in a boat surrounded by huge cliff faces which is breathtaking and really shows off what VR can achieve.

 

I personally just can't get over the seemingly huge drop in resolution in Prepar3d.

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Yep, that is probably because of GPU issues if you have up-sampled too high (like the 3840 whatever setting is). It won't be the simulator.

 

About to sell my old card/get the 1080, or at least get a 1080 for comparable testing.

 

Curious which exact 1080 you have.. or what 1080 others have?

 

My current debate is which of these to get:

 

EVGA 08G-P4-6286-KR FTW ACX 3.0 ($679, core 1721, boost 1860) vs 08G-P4-6183-KR SC ACX 3.0 $649 core 1708, boost 1847)

 

There is also the lower clocked 08G-P4-6284-KR (1607, 1733) middle of the line model, which on this site with 15% can make it $600 instead of $679 like the other.

 

 

 


MSI z690-a Unify; 1000 watt evga SuperNova Platinum; 12900kf at 1.255 adaptive LLC6, auto avx, auto Pcore, E-4.0ghz, Ring-4.1ghz, PL 241watt (Cine96c, games 83c case side On); DDR5 Gskill F5-6400J3239G16GA2-TZ5RS  at 6400mhz autovolt, Kraken x73 360mm; Thermaltake v51 Case; Gigabyte 4090 OC;  VR-Varjo Aero;  AstronomicallySpeaking:

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Curious which exact 1080 you have.. or what 1080 others have?

 

Yeah if you want 4K resolution upsampling in Flyinside to get bare minimum acceptable resolution for Orbx sceneries, a 1080 or SLI 980ti would be the way to go. (EDIT: the GTX970 minimum spec is for very basic sceneries flying a simple pattern at an FSX default airport).

 

I made the decision to go VR and went straight to the Gigabyte 1080 waterforce. On a i6700k OC47 rig that enables me to fly over dense cities at 25 sim frames and locked solid 90fps VR frames.

 

At 4K upsampled, the 1080 will be working near 100% most of the time but watercooled it sits at a low and stable 54degsC overclocked to 2GHZ. Can set most of the GPU heavy settings back to how I had it on flat panel including most of the useful shadows. No stuttering in VR smooth as. Much smoother than flat panel and incomparably better than trackIR.

 

I don't think watercooling is necessary though. Aircooled temps might be a bit higher but shouldn't be a problem. Main problem for me was that aircooled would pump too much heat into my case for the situation I am in (not much ventilation around the case).

 

The main hardware weak link in the chain is the CPU main sim job which can mean frames down to 25fps in the sim but without vsync/trackir issues 25fps is still really nice for most types of GA flying when the headset is pumping out 90fps. However I am running 20% road traffic and good amounts of air traffic and with those turned down 30fps would be normal. Flew over Melbourne city at night in the Rift. Wow! The city comes to life with the road traffic.

 

The main software weak link in the chain is Flyinside windows import for putting your flightplan and maps on the seat next to you in the plane. That feature is still in beta (edit: in my opinion). It works but it has lots of issues in flyinside 1.6. I can only set my radios with a detailed PDF flightplan at the beginning of the flight. Then I turn off the PDF window import and use the internal sim panels like the kneeboard.

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Just an update on things here.

 

Few changes.. i'm now back to my overclock at 4.4ghz (avg 7-10 fps increase with that)..

Still on the 980ti, though the 1080 ftw arrives later this week.

 

I did some local region testing (western pa) which is just basically GEX + vector + utx + rex + as16.. very very smooth.. i can pan my head around, no studders or judders.. scenery is mostly smooth as can be, cept a minor hickup as you get closer to landing at some local low res, default airports.

 

I also found, in my case, maybe since i wear glasses.. if i push the goggles off of my face slightly, i can reduce the screen door effect or jaggy effect quite a bit, making distant textures sharper. (rift).. so it seems ill probably make some padding in there to help with that.

 

Now for the issues.. back to PNW Orbx FTX testing.. this still on medium high settings.. i've found only a slight difference in performance as far as the goggles go, by lowering settings in the sim itself.. so i left things like shadows turned on and water at max.  Changing this hasnt helped much.

 

Take case example KORS takeoff in carenado bonanza v35.. frame rate reads say 45/95 sitting there, look around all seems fine.. start to take off, look/pan around, studder/judder city.. framerate still reading 39-47/90-95 (unlimited in sim/flyinsidefsx).. 

 

I really should find an app to monitor both cpu/gpu.. maybe next time ill test with gpuz at least, see what the avg gpu % is here. 

 

You would think with decently high frame rates there would be no judder, but maybe its a bottleneck in the cpu, i forget which.. holding head steady ground is smooth.  I'm willing to bet its because i set the flyinside supersample res to 3840x2374 and if i lower that a bit it may smooth out.. of course the 1080 might cure everything too.

 

I also fixed the ch yoke yanking to the right issue.. just had to set the mins and max'es in fsuipc, so far so good.


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 I'm willing to bet its because i set the flyinside supersample res to 3840x2374

 

Yeah, that res will be working your 980ti really hard probably too hard to keep it judder free. The 1080 is in theory only what 30% faster? but in reality for VR it makes more difference than that.

 

Once you get your 1080, try locking the sim on 30fps and leaving it there. I even locked it at 25fps and been happy with the smoothness even when the aircraft is turning, because the async time warp still works (huge difference between 90fps in headset and 25fps in the sim). I don't understand how, but it does.

 

So the upside is that VR uses a 1080's full capacity and the depiction is smooth. The downside is that the resolution is on the very lower limit of acceptability on 4K supersampling but good enough on ORBX for the fact that you are seeing the world in 1:1 scale no matter where you look.

 

The downside is that the 4W limit of USB 3.0 means that the luminance of any headset in the forseeable future is going to be limited unless they change the power source driving the displays. On a TV flatscreen the luminance can sometimes mimic day time brightness. In VR, you always have to imagine that you are wearing pretty strong sunglasses (which you do in the real world anyway). I have all the brightness /darkness settings turned up in flyinside, saturation left on medium setting. It is ok, but nothing in VR really shines bright like in the real world. The screen power input is just too low to mimic real world brightness unless they build in a battery in the headset or develop a new VR connector standard that can supply more power.

 

Despite the drawbacks, I'm sticking with VR. It's not just that depiction is 3D, but that the world scale is 1:1 as it appears to your brain no matter where you look.

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Wait for my detailed VR experiences thread once the next release is out.  I am heavily beta testing it with tons of addons and what not.

 

I do recommend SLI for VR due to VR-SLI is in the latest public release.  My 980s in SLI really do help in VR-SLI.  It is the way each eye is getting one video card so it helps in VR async FPS at VR 4K resolution.

 

I will post plenty of config pictures and what not

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I know this is the P3D forum, but, in my opinion, the absolute best VR experience for flight is Aerofly FS2 (available on Steam).  I have the Rift with a GTX 1080, and FlyInside, while promising, just doesn't have the resolution needed.  The developer has done an admirable job in getting the P3D engine to work in VR, but I suffered from eye strain after 20 minutes or so of flight even at the highest FlyInside resolution and hours spent tweaking.  AF2, however, really shows off the potential of VR, even though the program is in early access on Steam and VR was recently added as a beta feature.  If you aren't familiar with AF2, I encourage you to visit the AVSIM or Steam forums.  It is a very promising flight sim, albeit currently limited to SW United States and Switzerland. 

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It is ok, but nothing in VR really shines bright like in the real world

 

I managed to improve the naturalness of the light and scene shade by using the PTA tweaker reshader and turned off any HDR options. It's very acceptable now.

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I managed to improve the naturalness of the light and scene shade by using the PTA tweaker reshader and turned off any HDR options. It's very acceptable now.

I used/tested FlyInside for about a month with an Oculus Rift HMD, but had to return it, among other reasons, because the image displayed was simply too dark. Since FlyInside does not support HDR, I could do nothing about it and after all of the time I spent trying to make it work, I just gave up the cause. I am curious, however, of the settings that you are using in PTA. When I had PTA running with FlyInside, it caused some nasty effects such as double images in my HMD. So if you would not mind, what PTA settings are you using? Thanks.


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I used/tested FlyInside for about a month with an Oculus Rift HMD, but had to return it, among other reasons, because the image displayed was simply too dark

 

Yeah it would have been too dark for me as well because flying GA and gliders I do like natural looking light levels. But since Flyinside 1.6 you can control brightness and saturation in the settings. I turn brightness up on full inside Flyinside settings then use PTA shader on default settings except turn off the options in the HDR tab. I also have a 1080 so can turn on most of the shadows to get back the overcast-sunshine brightness effects they give. Doing that gets the Rift brightness up to a minimum acceptable levels for me personally. It's the same deal with the resolution, 4K supersampling inside flyinside gives minimum acceptable resolution for GA but you need a decent GPU or SLI rig as well as a decent CPU setup preferably overclocked if you want ORBX.

 

EDIT: It's amazing what they have achieved with the VR headset in terms of brightness considering it is being powered off only a USB port.

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Yeah it would have been too dark for me as well because flying GA and gliders I do like natural looking light levels. But since Flyinside 1.6 you can control brightness and saturation in the settings. I turn brightness up on full inside Flyinside settings then use PTA shader on default settings except turn off the options in the HDR tab. I also have a 1080 so can turn on most of the shadows to get back the overcast-sunshine brightness effects they give. Doing that gets the Rift brightness up to a minimum acceptable levels for me personally. It's the same deal with the resolution, 4K supersampling inside flyinside gives minimum acceptable resolution for GA but you need a decent GPU or SLI rig as well as a decent CPU setup preferably overclocked if you want ORBX.

 

EDIT: It's amazing what they have achieved with the VR headset in terms of brightness considering it is being powered off only a USB port.

 

I'm not really experiencing low brightness on either the vive or the rift.. but then again, maybe I dont know to look for it.  What is this PTA tweak.. is this another addon i assume?  Curious which brightness setting you use in the flyinside?

 

I still prefer the rift over vive due to the sharpness being better.. and also the sweet spot.  With the rift i dont really notice blurriness on the fringe of the lenses like i do with the vive, or maybe i just have a bad vive.. so for now i've stuck with the rift.

 

Biggest issue i have is that i wear glasses.. i need to create some sort of padding to pull the goggles back off every so slightly, this seems to eliminate the worst of the jaggies.  Having them closer to the face i think is causing an increase in jaggies/hard to see buildings/textures, even close ones in the middle, tug them slightly to ease the pressure and it clears up for the most part, at least to the acceptable vr level.

 

I did manage to download and try Aerofly FS2, wow.. right out of the box, max settings, fluid as can be.. however i attribute this to the fact its mostly photo scenery.. if orbx existed for that platform i'd bet it would need some tweaking.  I must say it looks darn good, especially the c172 cockpit.. shadows are great.. i dont know how flight model compares though.. but a darn good first round and hopefully up from that.  I think ill find myself using both p3d + aero.

 

I tried more tweaks to get the stuttering fixed on panning the head though (orbx areas only have this issue) with p3d.. i tried lowering the res a notch.. no joy.. i tried lowering p3d settings.. no joy.. tried setting fps to 25, still studdery.. i noticed that at KORS in the bonanza v35, just after leaving the runway is when it starts.. frame rate would dip to say 19 or 22 even, tho still at 90 on the goggles side.  I think its actually this causing the stuttering.. i'm sure the 1080 will cure all though, i did limited time tweaking, maybe tonight ill try again and find the magic 980ti solution.

 

I too will stick with the VR.. so who here after using VR and sticking with it.. has dumped their saitek panels?  Still waiting on the leap, although using the mouse isnt so bad.


MSI z690-a Unify; 1000 watt evga SuperNova Platinum; 12900kf at 1.255 adaptive LLC6, auto avx, auto Pcore, E-4.0ghz, Ring-4.1ghz, PL 241watt (Cine96c, games 83c case side On); DDR5 Gskill F5-6400J3239G16GA2-TZ5RS  at 6400mhz autovolt, Kraken x73 360mm; Thermaltake v51 Case; Gigabyte 4090 OC;  VR-Varjo Aero;  AstronomicallySpeaking:

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