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Byrna

Kai Tak in fs9?

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MarkI have tested the AI Aardvark and PAI Heavies (good FD's) for my IGS 13 approach into VHHX and they seek the runway pretty good on close turn to final (at the checkerboard or at least where it would be). A couple planes look like that real world video (I think is on your web site) where the B747 lands almost sideways.I wanted to wait until there is a good scenery that's Frame friendly from the people that some here have posted on. Don't know if they will ever finish it because like some say "their site is down".

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Guest jgreth123

Mark, There have been numerous engine strikes and touching down with huge crabs to the point of ripping tires off. The fireball that is shown in the video didn't appear to be the entire plane in flames, just an engine strike that could have ripped the engine off and the fuel from that fuel valve caught on fire. I didn't see the fire spread to the other side.... but the image was kinda low quality so it was tough to really tell.

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Guest Paragon

>I dunno . . . I wasn't put off by the crash at all. To me>that is actually one of the things Kai Tak was famous for -->crashes. And before you go aff and call me morbid or start>flaming me, lemme explain . . . Actually, as far as I know there have never been a crash at Kai Tak...only some hard landings and a couple of planes that went off the edge of the runway. Go check airliners.net and see if you can find a crash photo.

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Hi all... no, our site is not down (at least at the moment ;)) Sometimes we go over our monthly bandwidth quota.We had plan to release this in 2005 (a nice Xmas present), but alas, the moment you state a release date ya just know things will go wrong (I call it not Murphy's Law but Flightsim's Law). This is not only our first major addon project (so you modelers know how much involement that takes), but we are also actually learning the process for the very first time as we move along. Aaaagh! And then to make it with quality so people will want it on their systems AND to make it a version that is framerate friendly... well, you get the idea. Oh, and by the way it is a freeware project.As an FYI regarding the video's crash segment:"I caught the purpose of that shot -- showing the challenge of the landing and what can happen if you do not do the landing with utmost skill and attention. To me the Kai Tak crashes are a reminder to keep myself in gear and pay attention to what the heck I am doing."Christopher caught my intention of the purpose of crash shot I used. It was not meant to be historical fact, merely a director's freedom to get prospective modelers exited about coming on board. Some luv the shot - others hate it... just like any other addon ;)There were "accidents" or one might call them crashes at Kai Tak. On August 24, 1965 A US Marine Hercules C-130 taking troops back to Vietnam burst into flames seconds after lifting off from Runway 13. Only 12 of the 71 military personnel on board could be rescued before the aircraft sunk in the harbour. This was the worst accident in history of Kai Tak. But overall Kai Tak actually a very safely run airport, challenging yes, but safe. So again the actual reason for closing the airport was really due to capacity (and noise as stated above). Just before the big move ATC was handling an average of 30 movements per hour with peaks of 38! That's moving 28,000,000 passengers a year on one runway! (VATSIM... we have a challenge for ya!)I have attracted some very good modelers to the project but we definately could use more to help lesson the load. Of course if you've done 3-d modeling we are interested but even if you just have a certain specialty or interest, ie; textures, photoreal groundwork, PDF work, manuals, taking photos, etc., and wanna jump in - email me keep flyin'Clutch Cargo"alias ponyboy""alias socalmarcus"(yes a new nickname to represent my new fledging bush cargo service, "Clutch Cargo... when your Cargo's in a Clutch")

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<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>OK, the full details:China Airlines Flight 642 was a flight that flew from Bangkok International Airport in Bangkok to Hong Kong International Airport in Hong Kong operated by China Airlines' subsidiary Mandarin Airlines. The flight was supposed to fly onward to Taipei after the stop at Hong Kong. Due to severe weather situation at Hong Kong, the flight crew had prepared to divert the flight to fly directly to Taipei if the situation at Hong Kong was deemed unsuitable for landing. However, approaching Hong Kong and after initial weather and wind check being passed from the airport, the crew believed that it could land there and thus decided against a diversion. Before the arrival of flight 642 four flights carried out missed approaches, five planes diverted and 12 planes landed successfully.At about 6:43 P.M. on 22 August 1999, B-150, the MD-11 was making a final approach when a severe Tropical Storm Sam was 50km NE of the airport. At an altitude of 700 feet prior to touchdown a further wind check was passed to the crew: 320deg/28 knots gusting to 36 knots. It should be noted that maximum crosswind component limit for the aircraft was 24 knots. However, the crew neglected this and continued the landing. During the final flare to land, the plane banked on its right, landed hard on its right main gear and the no.3 engine touched the runway. The right main gear separated and the right wing separated. The plane rolled upside down and skidded off the runway in flames. When it stopped, it was on its back and the rear of the plane was on fire, coming to rest on a grass area next to the runway, 1100m from the runway threshold. The right wing was found on a taxiway 90m from the nose of the plane. The fuselage of the aircraft was burned completely in the accident. However, heavy rain during the time and quick response from rescue teams in the airport put out the fire quickly.Incredibly, only 3 of the 300 passengers died. No crew were killed.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/133379.jpgThe final report of the accident blamed it mainly on pilot error.In conclusion, and staying on subject, that is the only reason I found it inappropriate in Ponyboys' video, that's all. It's nothing to do with Kai Tak, although it was in Hong Kong, yes.MarkMark "Dark Moment" BeaumontVP Fleet, DC-3 AirwaysTeam Member, MAAM-SIM[a href=http://www.swiremariners.com/cathayhk.html" target="_blank]http://www.paxship.com/maamlogo2.jpg[/a]

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Guest jgreth123

Okay then, I sit corrected ;)I was right in that it was an engine strike the ripped the engine off. The rest however... well... ya know :-outta

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There's a photograph of a China Airlines 747 in the harbour on airliners.net together with a number of engine strikes.What's your definition of a crash?

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Guest Knikolaes

><<<<famous for -- crashes.>>What crashes, Chris? A couple went off the end of R13, yes,>but crashes? Nothing like that one in the video, for sure.>>MarkSorry I meant like "incident" -- engine strikes, etc. Dangerous things that could have proven -- lss than pleasent. Bad wording on my part.

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Guest Knikolaes

>>I dunno . . . I wasn't put off by the crash at all. To me>>that is actually one of the things Kai Tak was famous for -->>crashes. And before you go aff and call me morbid or start>>flaming me, lemme explain . . . >>Actually, as far as I know there have never been a crash at>Kai Tak...only some hard landings and a couple of planes that>went off the edge of the runway. Go check airliners.net and>see if you can find a crash photo.Aye I corrected myself in another reply above. I meant incidents -- not crashes on that part. I WAS talking on the subject of crashes, but in that sentence I meant to say Incidents.I never did make a good politition . . . so words escape me. All i knwo is I like to stay in one piece LOL.

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Guest Paragon

Heh, you and me both. ;)Plus I bet a lot of people would like to try and see if they can stay in one piece after having tried the famous approach. Seeing that there are now a couple of heavies ready that used to fly into this airport, such as the PMDG 747 and their upcoming MD11, I would think that it would further increase the interest.

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Guest baksteen33

Great Kai Tak thread as usual... Looking forward to your release, Clutch Cargo alias Ponyboy alias SocalMarcus :-) Good luck and kind regards Jaap PS, Mark, hope you're doing well!

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Guest Knikolaes

Aye, indeed. I have the 744 and the 763 from PMDG and LDS, and tried the approach a few times. I had half of them as go-arounds, so it is a challenge. I am pretty sure I had an engine strike with the 742 RFP, but then I have always had a harder time hand flying the 742 than the newer 744. **shrugs**One thing about this pproach that is awesome for FS pilots -- EXCELLENT test of hand/eye coordination as well as decision makign skills. Half of my go-arounds PROBABLY could have been successful landings, but if it doesn't feel COMPLETELY right, I go-around.That's my rule now as a mere student . . . but I hope to keep that rule on into my future as a pilot.

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I look forward to seeing the finished article :).---------------------------------------"If it doesn't have a VC, I won't be flying it http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/DarrenA300/smug.gif" ... hang on a minute .... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/DarrenA300/unsure.gif ... that is too restrictive! Most flight simulator planes don't have a fully functional VC .... I'm happy to fly non-VC planes such as the brilliant iFDG range, Samdim's fantastic aircraft, POSKY's wonderful planes, and many many others! I'm the richer for it :).

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Guest B52Drivr

Hello All, Just wanted to chime in here a bit on KaiTak. I have never 'piloted' and aircraft into KaiTak, but have been a passenger more than a few times and EVERYTIME, the approach was breathtaking, if not very scarry! Being a pilot, and a control freak, it was very difficult to just sit there and be 'cargo' while the pilot and FO were doing their thing. Reminds me of the joke of the Samurai Pilot "real men don't use autoland . . . " Makes you wonder how many times that has really happened, although I'm not sure 'autoland' even would have been applicable at KiaTak.On the 9 Dargons video, I thought it was great . . . and although it did show a 'crash' incident,or whatever, KiaTak is famous for those incidents as it is a most unforgiving airport and approach if done improperly or if the weather or winds aren't favorable, really bad things happen. This is the real world, and that is what happens; in real life they can't hit the reset button and start over -- like it or not. Yep, the flash got my attention, but we all see much worse on the news every single night and if you are simulating flying, crashs do occur, sometimes at an alarming rate and with disasterous results, its a fact of life. I know some of you said, "gee, I don't need to see this in FS". Well, perhaps true, but also if your' simulating flight, and serious about it, then you know already the results of making a 'bad' mistake on a trecherous airport like KiaTak. No flames please, just giving an opinion, and like noses, everyone has one. However, would love to see the 9 Dragons project come to a head and be released . . . BestClayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

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I think the thing about the crash that hit most was that it didn't happen at Kai Tak, but at at the new Chep Lak Kok airport. That's why it seems out of place. Correct me if I'm wrong..

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Guest B52Drivr

I could stand corrected, (as I do admit to being wrong once in awhile), but I was sure that was at KT. If memory serves me correctly there have been several serious crashes at KT, mostly involving freighters -- one for sure I KNOW the aircraft was a total loss and KT was shut down for 2 days due to the mess being on the runway. See, now you got me thinking and questioning myself . . .am I wrong here? Or am I thinking of another airport?Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

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ClayRead back in this very thread. I have already qualified this particular crash in some depth. It was at Chek Lap Kok in 1999 and there was loss of life, although incredibly only three people.There have certainly been accidents at Kai Tak, yes, as with many airports, but nothing really major. Mostly overshoots. They are all recorded for anyone who really wants to know about them all but that is not what this thread, or I for that matter, am about ;).MarkMark "Dark Moment" BeaumontVP Fleet, DC-3 AirwaysTeam Member, MAAM-SIM[a href=http://www.swiremariners.com/cathayhk.html" target="_blank]http://www.paxship.com/maamlogo2.jpg[/a]

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Guest B52Drivr

Dear Mark, Thank you, I stand corrected -- in thinking about it later, I really wasn't sure, but know I had seen it once before. And yes, from the size of the explosion, to think that only three lives were lost is a major break of good luck -- it certainly looked terrifying.As to the 9 Dragons project, it really would be nice to see it finished -- many of us miss the old 13 approach.Best to you and yours and thanks for setting the record straight.Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

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Hi Christopher,I noticed you were also posting in the PSS forum about the FMC freezes in the 777...Actually, I have the Hong Kong 2004 scenery by Flightsoft and the hills are what really ruin its looks - looks like FS98 quality or earlier - graphics!As for Kai Tak, I got the feeling that it was one real headache for pilots to fly to. I mean, the sheer cramped quarters of an airport with no room for expansion, surrounded on one side by buildings, on another by more buildings and hills, and water on the remaining sides, handling major heavy passenger AND cargo traffic must be fine for simulation but I doubt any pilot really misses it due to its very dangerous (high risk) design. Let's face it, landing a 600,000 lbs 747 full of 400 or more people by making a 47 degree turn about 2-3 miles from the TDZ is NOT exactly recomended in flight school NOR in real-life I imagine. Chek Lap Kok, the new Hong Kong airport, is a real PLEASURE to fly into. It seems to be very similar in conception to some other major Asian airports like Seoul Incheon, and Tokyo Haneda (old) which are also on "islands".Crazy and some might argue "suicidal" airport design if you ask me.John

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