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Why the need for an active internet connection

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13 minutes ago, markdf said:

I do stand by my statement about piracy ultimately being inevitable

Piracy can be prevented ... the myth about inevitability is exactly that ... a myth, or more likely propaganda to try to get developers to NOT protect their work.  I can assure you protection of one's work can be and is effective (I have real world proof of that) ... it's really a matter of how much time one wants to commit to it.  Internet connection is the easiest and most effective and in 99% cases the least intrusive to the end user.

If you have some potential solutions that protects the developer, I'd be interested to hear them ... but like I suggested the "offline mode for X period of time" doesn't work because end users can simply change their PC date/time and the "X period of time" would never be reached leaving the thief unhindered in their software usage.

Cheers, Rob.

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47 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Piracy can be prevented ... the myth about inevitability is exactly that ... a myth, or more likely propaganda to try to get developers to NOT protect their work.  I can assure you protection of one's work can be and is effective (I have real world proof of that) ... it's really a matter of how much time one wants to commit to it.  Internet connection is the easiest and most effective and in 99% cases the least intrusive to the end user.

If you have some potential solutions that protects the developer, I'd be interested to hear them ... but like I suggested the "offline mode for X period of time" doesn't work because end users can simply change their PC date/time and the "X period of time" would never be reached leaving the thief unhindered in their software usage.

Cheers, Rob.

There's a huge number of cracked protection schemes out there that would beg to differ - the sheer number of applications and games ranging from indie to multi-million dollar budgets that fail to stop pirates circumventing their protections proves otherwise unless you're privy to secrets that the Microsofts and LMs of this industry are not, but I fear this debate will go around in circles and never lead anywhere but further off topic. I'm not going to subscribe to the philosophy of assuming everyone is a thief until proven otherwise, and you clearly aren't going to sway from that position. Had you said "Piracy can be managed", or "Piracy can be reduced", I'd probably find it easier to agree.

Ray has already given many examples of alternate schemes in use by various companies in this very thread, so I'm not going to sit here and retype them

This level of verification and restriction is not the normal for the flight sim market of today - this is the extreme end of the scale. I've bought from a lot of companies over the years, not one of them has ever even strayed close to this territory. Before encountering Chaseplane the ability to reinstall my flight sim addons was not even a consideration. This fails at being "least intrusive", were this issue removed then I personally would almost never be aware of the background verification.

I've said that I'm willing to pay, willing to consider options like dongles etc, despite you erroneously claiming I'd dismissed all of those as options - I've agreed with your suggested alternatives and yet you're still debating the connection issue with me (and in fact I never dismissed those options as acceptable in the first place) I've said this many times in various ways, but here it is in bold and as simply as I can say it so there can be no incorrect assumptions/interpretations/misunderstandings about my key point:

My main issue with the current system is the limit on installs.  In a scenario where I can reinstall freely at will I do not care about having to stay connected (so long as the system does not collapse at the first dropped packet.)   I do not care what it costs, I do not care if it means keeping a dongle attached.

If you disagree or want to debate me then that's fine, all I ask is you actually debate the thing I'm actually complaining about. If you just want to debate about how always-on connection is an inescapable fact of software then you're debating the wrong person - I've got no interest in arguing that with you beyond the exception mentioned above: specifically how it renders the activation limit redundant. Beyond that as long as it happens in the background I really couldn't care less. I can't help but feel you're arguing with what you think I'm going to say rather than what I've actually said.

EDIT:

Oh, and at this point I'm off to bed, so you're not likely to get any response this side of Thursday.  Because I'm way too tired for this right now, have a good evening in whatever your local timezone is :)

Edited by markdf
Bedtime! Yawn!

Mark Fox

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4 minutes ago, markdf said:

I'm not going to subscribe to the philosophy of assuming everyone is a thief until proven otherwise, and you clearly aren't going to sway from that position.

We obviously disagree ... everyone "selling" anything assumes everyone has the potential to be a thief (and they do), that's why at retail stores we have a "checkout" and "body scanners" for EVERYONE that walks in/out the store ... if a retail store assumed everyone was legit then we wouldn't even have checkouts or any security, just leave your money for what you selected in a big box on your way out.  That obviously doesn't happen, so I'm sorry to say, yes everyone is considered a potential thief in just about any aspect of virtual or real world.  You can thank all the thieves for inducing "intrusive" measures on the those of us that aren't thieves.

For the very reasons you stated ... there are many attempted hacks of software (a simple google search will reveal that but it's still a small fraction of the world of software) ... the reason theft of software is so popular is because people think they can it do it with a level on anonymity.  Which in most cases is a false sense of security not to mention "modified" software (hacked by some unknown source) at these very sites can come with a few highly intrusive surprises (ransomware for example) ... how do I know, recently one of our clients was a victim of Ransonware (tried to blame our company for allowing it to happen) but ultimately they found out (thank goodness for OS logs) it came from their own IT guy (ya think he would know better) who was also using the company server as a game server using hacked software with Ransomware in it.  Was his job worth the few dollars he was trying to avoid paying?

USB Key would solve your reactivation case.  I don't know what is 'normal" or not 'normal', don't really care so long as one's work is protected from theft it seems like a reasonable compromise.  Reactivation maybe a slight inconvenience, but again it's just a matter of a phone call or email to identify and verify the customer and new activation is issued ... 48 hours without ChasePlane usage isn't life or death is it?

Software purchases, retail store purchases, they're two way streets with give and take on both sides in order to protect product and to provide product.  

Cheers, Rob.

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Can;t use it either...Crashes when it says logging in, getting libraries...then crashes and asks me to provide ConnectionClose error message...hope you get this fixed quickly...as I am unable to fly without.

thanks

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I had the same issue, and assumed it was a problem with my setup.  If this is what we can expect every time CP's servers hiccup, that's simply pathetic.  It's also Exhibit A as to why we need an offline mode NOW, or at least CP needs to be rewritten so that, if it can't log in, the user simply goes back to standard FSX/P3D views, not a situation where you are pretty much SOL.

 

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James David Walley

Ryzen 7 7700X, 32 GB, RTX 3080

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This is exactly why always-online verification fails, and why products that use it should not be allowed to overwrite the configuration of the core sim on a permanent basis - especially when it's rapidly becoming clear that CP's backend is just not up to the job of supporting something that needs a connection 100% of the time.  System's like this must have some tolerance for connection failures, there's no need for a $40 piece of software to fall over every time it can't phone home.

Funny how only yesterday (and one page back) my point about needing to account for server failures needing to be accounted for was dismissed and I was told that failures along the connection path (including servers, ISP and home equipment) were below 1%, and yet we've already had multiple incidents just this year with CP alone.  Things fail all the time and something like a camera plugin, where everything except the preset library/online backup system run on your local computer have no excuse for ceasing to function every time there's a glitch somewhere along the line.

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Mark Fox

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10 minutes ago, markdf said:

This is exactly why always-online verification fails, and why products that use it should not be allowed to overwrite the configuration of the core sim on a permanent basis - especially when it's rapidly becoming clear that CP's backend is just not up to the job of supporting something that needs a connection 100% of the time.  System's like this must have some tolerance for connection failures, there's no need for a $40 piece of software to fall over every time it can't phone home.

Funny how only yesterday (and one page back) my point about needing to account for server failures needing to be accounted for was dismissed and I was told that failures along the connection path (including servers, ISP and home equipment) were below 1%, and yet we've already had multiple incidents just this year with CP alone.  Things fail all the time and something like a camera plugin, where everything except the preset library/online backup system run on your local computer have no excuse for ceasing to function every time there's a glitch somewhere along the line.

Hi Mark, I've been following this thread, my first thoughts are this guy knows how to write and express himself extremely well.  You make some very good points with your thoughtful, insightful, and cogent points.

I agree with you 100%.  Here we all are again held hostage by Keven, I mean literally, Keven now has complete control over our sims.  We spent $40 to be at his mercy and I for one do not appreciate it one bit.  This has gone to the point of ridiculousness.  I think he's about to lose my business to Flight1's new EZCA.  

At the VERY least he should have some kind of switch on his control panel so we can deactivate CP if HIS servers are down.  I did not think the servers would go down so frequently as they have since I installed it.

All he has done now is make me a VERY angry and dissatisfied customer looking for another camera system.  

 

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Jack Sawyer

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8 minutes ago, Jack_Sawyer said:

Hi Mark, I've been following this thread, my first thoughts are this guy knows how to write and express himself extremely well.  You make some very good points with your thoughtful, insightful, and cogent points.

I agree with you 100%.  Here we all are again held hostage by Keven, I mean literally, Keven now has complete control over our sims.  We spent $40 to be at his mercy and I for one do not appreciate it one bit.  This has gone to the point of ridiculousness.  I think he's about to lose my business to Flight1's new EZCA.  

At the VERY least he should have some kind of switch on his control panel so we can deactivate CP if HIS servers are down.  I did not think the servers would go down so frequently as they have since I installed it.

All he has done now is make me a VERY angry and dissatisfied customer looking for another camera system.  

 

Thank you for the kind words Jack, it's always appreciated to know that I'm making sense to someone other than myself :)

The response I see to a lot of complaints about things like this (not just on this product but others as well) is that "It's still in beta...", or "after the beta", but personally I've always taken the view that if it's good enough to take non-refundable money then it should be dependable and stable. If you can't guarantee that (especially as I said previously - on a product that should be capable of running without the servers) then I believe money should be refundable up until the point that the product reaches a finished 1.0 stage, largely because whilst being charged to be used as testers customers have no other way to hold a developer to account for poor decisions.

In contrast over the weekend while I was dealing with a server failure at work, I reinstalled a product where pricing starts at $1600.  It phoned home once, verified it's license and now runs completely happily offline. Job done.

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Mark Fox

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1 minute ago, markdf said:

Thank you for the kind words Jack, it's always appreciated to know that I'm making sense to someone other than myself :)

The response I see to a lot of complaints about things like this (not just on this product but others as well) is that "It's still in beta...", or "after the beta", but personally I've always taken the view that if it's good enough to take non-refundable money then it should be dependable and stable. If you can't guarantee that (especially as I said previously - on a product that should be capable of running without the servers) then I believe money should be refundable up until the point that the product reaches a finished 1.0 stage, largely because whilst being charged to be used as testers customers have no other way to hold a developer to account for poor decisions.

In contrast over the weekend while I was dealing with a server failure at work, I reinstalled a product where pricing starts at $1600.  It phoned home once, verified it's license and now runs completely happily offline. Job done.

I couldn't agree more.  At this very moment I have paid him non-refundable money to allow him complete control over my sim unless I uninstall his program.  This is unacceptable to me and an outrage.  I'm here to tell you if this doesn't get resolved soon, as I believe he will NEVER have reliable and stable servers, I will make sure no one I know buys it.

And before anyone goes off on me telling me it's only a sim or I can fly another day, or real flights get cancelled, I don't want to hear it.  This is something I am not allowed to use right now because of HIS extremely POOR decisions.  All it's doing is infuriating me.  I KNOW it's not life or death, I KNOW it's "just a sim", I KNOW I can fly some other day and yes, I even KNOW I bought it realizing this.  But this is MY PC and MY sim, not HIS!  The only solution I have is to uninstall this wretched piece of filth and buy something that doesn't hold my PC hostage.  I am NOT a bloody pirate, never have been and never will be and won't PAY to be treated as such!

 

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Jack Sawyer

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strange  that users  are  having  issues   bought  cp on  day  one  and  had  zero issues   with it  other  than  teh one  time  when  his  server  went  down  other  than this  works  like  a charm


I7-800k,Corsair h1101 cooler ,Asus Strix Gaming Intel Z370 S11 motherboard, Corsair 32gb ramDD4,    2  ssd 500gb 970 drive, gtx 1080ti Card,  RM850 power supply

 

Peter kelberg

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2 minutes ago, pete_auau said:

strange  that users  are  having  issues   bought  cp on  day  one  and  had  zero issues   with it  other  than  teh one  time  when  his  server  went  down  other  than this  works  like  a charm

Not that strange except for the fact that you haven't been using it at the other times their servers have been down, and you've never used it on an unreliable internet/network connection.  Pretty simple to explain really.

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Mark Fox

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Just now, markdf said:

Not that strange except for the fact that you haven't been using it at the other times their servers have been down, and you've never used it on an unreliable internet/network connection.  Pretty simple to explain really.

so guess  your  saying  their  servers  goes  down  quite  often  than,  since  i  havn't  noticed  that  other  than the  one  time   when everyone  started   posting  in   about  the lost  connection.    


I7-800k,Corsair h1101 cooler ,Asus Strix Gaming Intel Z370 S11 motherboard, Corsair 32gb ramDD4,    2  ssd 500gb 970 drive, gtx 1080ti Card,  RM850 power supply

 

Peter kelberg

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1 minute ago, pete_auau said:

so guess  your  saying  their  servers  goes  down  quite  often  than,  since  i  havn't  noticed  that  other  than the  one  time   when everyone  started   posting  in   about  the lost  connection.    

I'm saying exactly what I said, most recently the servers were down today in fact, but I'm sure you're capable of reading through the forum so I won't summarise everybody's complaints here since just a quick flick through the topic listings can answer that.

It fails any time anything along the route between the end user and the server fails, whether that's because of their servers, the ISP or anything in between.


Mark Fox

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