Pity there isn't a ....

[Guest shanwick]

If I have a serious problem with support for my telephone, gas, electricity or whatever system that the company concerned will not deal with adequately I can take my complaint to an ombudsman or commission. They will look at the problem and issue a directive for it to be resolved if they consider that to be necessary.Now the flight simulation industry has decided in the interests of security to endorse a "wrapper" or similar system whereby a key file is needed from the developer in order to run their product.However, as we have seen in the last few days, there appear to be some very genuine cases where buyers have subsequently been denied the re-issue of keys and have therefore lost the money they paid in good faith for their purchase.As things stand at the moment the buyer is completely at the mercy of the supplier to continue to deliver the product or service originally purchased.Fortunately, it seems that these situations are fairly rare but nevertheless they do happen. Isn't it time that some sort of arbitration system was set up to look at these cases?At the very least it would be helpful if there was some sort of central information source that could be accessed to find out basic information about a developer before buying. Information could include:How long has the developer been in business?Where is the developer's main business base?Can you try products on a limited basis before buying?Do they have a refund policy?Do they use a wrapper system?How many reinstallation keys will you be allowed?Do they have a support forum?Can the support forum be viewed before purchasing a product?How quickly do they say they will reply to problems?Can you e-mail the developer direct or do they hide behind an anonymous address?It really is unacceptable that any developer can be in the position of Jury, Judge and Executioner and the customer is powerless.David

[Guest Cindy_Zoonan]

Legal recourse of course is to go to small claims court. Your idea of an e-bay-style "rate this vendor" is useful.

[Guest allcott]

>Legal recourse of course is to go to small claims court. >Your idea of an e-bay-style "rate this vendor" is useful.Apart from the fact that using their system it is perfectly possible for a concerted campaign to villify the vendor. Judge jury and exectioner, the other way. No good either IMHO.Ombudsman seems like a good idea, but with any arbitration it requires that both parties agree to arbitrate and to abide by its decisions, and the arbitrator has the powers to enforce judgement if they don't. I don't see how any body in this world wide market could actually wield any power? Unless one was set up in each country and could liaise with its equivalent elsewhere to match all possible combinations of country for both developer and customer. The costs to do that for the small size of the market and the number of complaints would be ludicrous.The real power lies in forums like this - which tends to expose the guilty parties on both sides - whether the complaint is justified or vidictive, whether the vendor is deliberately obstructive and difficult, or just the subject of `bad press`, and all that.What's wrong with having the cases `tried` right here? Seems that Avsim is quite happy to let things like this run their course, unless they get out of hand. What better option could there be? Look at Captain Sim. After years of ignoring customers complaints, treating paying punters like something scraped from the sole of a shoe and wilfully dismissing demands for a specific forum, Avsim sets up the unofficial forum and within days CS responds with their own, AND promises patches - AND even delivers on a promise! THATS real power. Allcott

[aerdt 0]

Those cases seem to be the minority, but people make a big deal out of it. Personally, I would not hestitate to take them to the small claims court, if my key for re-installation was denied. This is a fairly powerful community and any unacceptable behavor from a developer/distributor will be reprimanded - see by the example of the ridiculous circus from a few weeks ago and the 'other' developer who managed to isolate himself from the rest of the community.If I pay for the product, I want (and I am eligible) to use it. Even Microsoft (or for that matter any other developer) has less strict anti-piracy policies. The fact that developers use hardware-dependend keys is ridiculous for a 30-something buck add-on. What's next? A dongle?The only way to protect yourself from a sour developer grape is to inform yourself and have some common sense. Most reputable developers have a very active community and forum and regulary offer help and support - plus they're know by name and don't hide themselves under a cryptic (or even anonymous) synonym.Pat

[alastairmonk 0]

Hi Pat,Given the extent of the piracy that does exist, developers have the right to protect their products. If you don't like the protection system, no-one is forcing you to buy using that system - many reputable companies also provide the same products on CD if you can afford to wait a few months. Most users accept this, and the widespread use of the "Wrapper system" bears out the fact that (a) it works and (:( users don't mind using it.If you do have ethical objections to the system you are free to exercise your right not to purchase.Alastair

[Guest]

Well said.Remember of course that ever more publishers require online activation of CD based products as well, something that will only increase over time.For the future, I foresee a situation in which the software isn't even available to you for installation on your machine.Instead, it will be run on a remote server at runtime, and the results of the execution sent to your machine for display.This will be combined with a pay-per-view style payment scheme.In that future, there is no more piracy. If you're stupid enough to give others access to your accounts you will pay for their use (and the use of anyone those people give access to themselves) until you terminate the account or get it terminated for non-payment.

[Guest Camsdad]

I agree. I have sent in numerous trouble tickets to Sim Market.com and still have yet to receive any correspondence. To those who say it's a spam filter, it isn't. I have them turned off and also have switched emails. I ordered Flight Deck Companion some time ago. I had to reformat and still can't get FDC back on my system. I'm so fed up with Sim Market that I'll probably never buy another thing from them again. If anybody can help please let me know.Thanks.

[1mikel151 71]

Despite the fact that the d/l expires in a short time (which I think is BS) I have had no problems with Simmarket, even put in a couple of trouble tickets and they have been answered timely.As someone that does commercial work outside of FS, I see both sides of the arguement. I think there is more than enough info in these forums to help you decide if a company's policies work for you or not.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

[Guest]

Downloads expire because of the cost involved with people downloading something a dozen times or more.Simmarket(and other companies too) have to pay for the bandwidth you use, and given the low price of the products compared to their current download sizes that can become a rather large factor in the total cost equation.

[1mikel151 71]

If that is the arguement (which I doubt), then limit the number of d/ls, not put a time limit. Since they charge for an extended option, then it is a money making issue more than anything else.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

[TonyB 1]

I have purchased numerous times from Simmarket and have always had a good experience.The one time I needed customer service, they were back to me within 24 hours with a resolution. Tony