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Guest vas_yan

DoD Announces Intent to Cease Distribution of Nav Data

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Guest Wichita

The DoD can shut down the civilian segment of GPS with a flick of the switch. The military version will still be up and running and I guess the commercial airlines could spend a few billion changing over to different receivers. All civilian type will then make a nice doorstop or paper weight.Don't laugh,it could happen...David

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>Are we absolutely positive this is only the DAFIF data and>not everything currently published for free? (PDF charts etc) >I would not be surprised in the least if it was everything.>It would be the DAFIF data only, as they compile data collected from sources outside the U.S. just like Jeppesen does.That puts them at the same risk of either being charged user fees or subject to lawsuits as Jeppesen.The data for the .pdf charts etc put out by the FAA is collected internally within the U.S. and is likely not to be affected.The National security stuff has to merely be mentioned as a way to better justify the reason for removal should it come to that. The real reason for all this has to be what is going on between Jeppesen and Airservices Australia.Regards.Ernie.


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>The National security stuff has to merely be mentioned as a>way to better justify the reason for removal should it come to>that. The real reason for all this has to be what is going on>between Jeppesen and Airservices Australia.Of course. After all DAFIF is an international database. How exactly does giving out approaches for Airports and fixes for airways in Nepal, Myanmar, Ivory Coast, Russia, Germany, Andorra, in short, all other 177 Countries out there, affect the National Security of the USA?Not at all.

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Ah well, as someone much smarter than me said, "We get the government we deserve"... We certainly did here in Oz...Anyhow, this thread has been the most entertaining at AvSim for a very long time, thanks all for the contributions...Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australia

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Guest captbulldog 2

>>>Won't effect me in the slightest... Don't use it now, so>>>won't miss it. :)>>>:-outta>>>http://publish.hometown.aol.com/p3superb/i...s/sign_name.jpg>>>>>>There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness".>>>- unknown>>>"My daddy gives me up, to fight for you">>>- a US Military Members Child>>>>>>So then why did you respond? I'm sure there's a few things>>you use that I wouldn't miss either :-roll >>Then why did YOU even respond?I dont know, but why did YOU?

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Guest

I too read it all. The real reason is that the US government seems to have been put on notice by the providers of the data (or part of it) that they can no longer provide it free of charge or at cost (ever purchased DOD FLIPs? They cost less per book with dozens of airports than the Jeps for a single airport, and while less complete are enough for most operations).Commercial interests may have something to do with it, and national security as well (though little, it's probably just mentioned because this is the DoD after all and it's foremost on their minds as it should be) that's the main reason.Outside the US this data is indeed not usually available free of charge and foreign governments may have realised at last that their income stream from selling charts and data was drying up...

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Guest Kingair315

Real Pilots will get the Data, they cant fly without it. Ive been using FSNAV since early versions, and about once a month I click on the link to update any new data. Then I get new STAR info which users add to their Data base, then transmitted to FSNav. Now in the future, it may not be correct or exact, but it works for me, as long as it gets me to the airfield in FS9... The DOD may have data which is not necessary for civilian pilots, like that for Military fields, etc.. and that may no longer be available. An example might be, the data which was given to me at Ft Hood, by an Apache Pilot. A book of all military installations, with all info about them, like you can get of civilian fields. Expired Charts galore that she had for several areas from Ft Hood to Irwin CA, as they made a flight there for training. The pilot I am speaking of, was the FIRST Apache pilot to cross into Iraq, at the beginning of the Iraq war. She is in Fox Troop, 7th Regiment... (Custers old Regiment) but by this time is back in the states safely. It blew my mind when I heard on CNN her name as the first Apache Pilot across the line. Have a picture of me, sitting in here Apache, and one with her. She went out of her way to help me get the charts, etc.. as my nephew is the Chief Technical Inspector for Fox Troop. Bob

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Guest

>>Are we absolutely positive this is only the DAFIF data and>>not everything currently published for free? (PDF charts etc)>>>I would not be surprised in the least if it was everything.>>>>It would be the DAFIF data only, as they compile data>collected from sources outside the U.S. just like Jeppesen>does.>>That puts them at the same risk of either being charged user>fees or subject to lawsuits as Jeppesen.>>The data for the .pdf charts etc put out by the FAA is>collected internally within the U.S. and is likely not to be>affected.>>The National security stuff has to merely be mentioned as a>way to better justify the reason for removal should it come to>that. The real reason for all this has to be what is going on>between Jeppesen and Airservices Australia.>>Regards.>Ernie.thank you for being the voice of reason Ernie.As usual the uninformed are going ballistic over something they know nothing about, screaming about government conspiracies in fact if not in so many words.And it's not just Oz, other countries are starting to restrict access to their data to paying customers only to make more money in a time of economic trouble...

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Well, at the risk of offending the various proponents of all the insane conspiracy-theories being offered so far, let's look at exectly what the notice said and allow that maybe the people who made this decision don't reflect the lack of character of many of those here who are quite unfairly slamming them.Says the NGA:"This action is taken to accomplish the following objectives:""safeguarding the integrity of Department of Defense (DoD) aeronautical navigation data currently available on the publicInternet"The decision to remove the DAFIF data, which is used operationally by our armed forces, among other government agencies, from the public internet, makes it much harder for someone to hack into the database and do harm. Imagine the consequences of a hacker changing altitude minimums on an approach plate, for example, when he knows that weather in a particular hotspot is going to be bad. With crews using this data more and more, the last thing we need is a $400 million C-17-shaped hole in the dirt because the crew descended to an unsafe altitude and hit a cumulogranite cloud while on approach to the GWOT Hell Hole of the Week. That's just one of many conceivable operational risks of having this data hung out on the public internet. By keeping the data on closed or restricted-access government networks an added measure of security is obtained. Absolute security? No such thing. But you do what you can to tighten things up."preventing unfettered access to air facility data by those intending harm to the United States, its interests or allies"It doesn't say that somebody in the Pentagon is deluded into believing that this action will prevent access to the data by those who shouldn't have it. It says *unfetterd* access. In other words, nobody expects tha bad guys won't be able to get the data they need, but we're not going to just give it to them."upholding terms of bi-lateral geospatial data-sharing agreements;"The DAFIF is compiled with data from many sources...most of which are not American. The agreements made to provide that data did not include an agreement to allow their data to be freely redistributed over the internet. The US Govt has a real interest in keeping as complete a database as possible...it's not going to be complete at all if sources cry foul and stop providing the data."avoiding competition with commercial interests"There are many precedents where US DoD actively avoids putting itself in a position in which it would compete with commercial interests. The space-available transportation rules, for example, which allow military members and their families to fly nearly for free on Air Mobility Command flights, have a score of rules aimed at preventing AMC from competing with airlines for domestic travel. It wasn't the military's idea...it's the result of industry lobbying to the lawmakers who drive these sorts of restraints. Don't like what noncompetition policies do? Call your Congressman."avoiding intellectual property/copyright disputes with foreign agencies that provide host nation aeronautical data."A considerable amount of the data contained in DAFIF is the intellectual property of other governments or organizations. These governments and organizations have a legitimate right to expect that their intellectual property rights be respected, and that the data they sell not be given away by the US Government for free. The scathing commentary on this thread suggesting that the government or NGA is somehow in bed with Jeppeson or the industry in general places the blame for profit motives quite wrongly. If these companies are making a profit, it's becuase their host nations permit it...it's not up to the US Government to change that.So...we have a challenge ahead of us to either find an alternative source, or somehow develop a standardized nav database that evolves (albeit more slowly than real time) by collecting user inputs, as we did/do with the approach databases for PIC and PS1 among others.But for the whining crybabies..."WAAAAH, that mean old nasty US government took away my woobie!! WAAAAH" Get over it! We were never entitled to much of the data we got in the first place...be glad we're lucky enough to have the data we already have as a great starting point.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC


Bob Scott | President and CEO, AVSIM Inc
ATP Gulfstream II-III-IV-V

System1 (P3Dv5/v4): i9-13900KS @ 6.0GHz, water 2x360mm, ASUS Z790 Hero, 32GB GSkill 7800MHz CAS36, ASUS RTX4090
Samsung 55" JS8500 4K TV@30Hz,
3x 2TB WD SN850X 1x 4TB Crucial P3 M.2 NVME SSD, EVGA 1600T2 PSU, 1.2Gbps internet
Fiber link to Yamaha RX-V467 Home Theater Receiver, Polk/Klipsch 6" bookshelf speakers, Polk 12" subwoofer, 12.9" iPad Pro
PFC yoke/throttle quad/pedals with custom Hall sensor retrofit, Thermaltake View 71 case, Stream Deck XL button box

Sys2 (MSFS/XPlane): i9-10900K @ 5.1GHz, 32GB 3600/15, nVidia RTX4090FE, Alienware AW3821DW 38" 21:9 GSync, EVGA 1000P2
Thrustmaster TCA Boeing Yoke, TCA Airbus Sidestick, 2x TCA Airbus Throttle quads, PFC Cirrus Pedals, Coolermaster HAF932 case

Portable Sys3 (P3Dv4/FSX/DCS): i9-9900K @ 5.0 Ghz, Noctua NH-D15, 32GB 3200/16, EVGA RTX3090, Dell S2417DG 24" GSync
Corsair RM850x PSU, TM TCA Officer Pack, Saitek combat pedals, TM Warthog HOTAS, Coolermaster HAF XB case

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Very well stated, Bob. A voice of reason, indeed. :)


BobK

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Next time you run into her (and your nephew) thank them for their service for me!

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Guest Peter Sidoli

BobI often read your posts on aviation matters and am always impressed at your knowledge as a real world pilot. I cannot agree with you here. This is very little to do with DOD Navdata.You are aware as much as I am that the aviation industry took a major blow from the terrible events of 9/11.A blow which crippled aviation and which detroyed jobs across the aviation spectrum as well as making our market as pilots hard to get into.While no body is against practical and sensible moves to secure the safety and security of aircraft many of the restrictions have been far from practical or sensible.Most have been reactions from beaurocracies who have nothing better to do with their time than incorporating poorly conceived ideas which have profound effects on an already crippled aviation industry.Many have been put into force purely for public consumption and to allow politicians to appear to the world that they are indeed doing something.Many are used to pass legislation which runs against human liberty laws and allows governments to slide in legislation under the pretence of public security.While no one is against sensible well conceived concepts being put into force to make our skies more secure, I personally find that the victim in all this is aviation which is badly hurt by this political kicking around of the football.How on earth can restricting this data make a terrorist attack less likely.Any such attack would be well organised and funded and would certainly not involve someone needing to grab data off the internet.I am sure they wouldnt be updating the data on the systems on the aircraft they used which would be up to date anyway.So if they have another reason for this then be honest and not hide under the cloak of national security.Peter

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Peter; I sometimes have the feeling that nothing government could do would be good enough. NGA have outlined several legitimate reasons for the intended action...they have been honest enough and put those reasons in plain English into the public record. Alas, if only people would read them. Where does NGA say that restricting this data makes a terrorist attack less likely? They did not say that...or imply that. Those are your words. The majority of the discussion in the federal register is focused on issues other than security. Putting DAFIF behind an electronic fence costs very little, and does several things in the interests of data integrity, compliance with intellectual property laws (violations of which do $billions in damage to US commerce), preservation of critical data sources, and yes, to a small degree security. But a number of folks have locked onto a nonexistent "this move will stop terrorists in their tracks" argument for the decision, rather than reading and understanding exactly what was said. As much as politicians often annoy me, I remained convinced that they really do, in fact "do something"...were it not for them the world would be one big Beirut, with all the various factions fighting for control and nothing going forward in the meantime. Give 'em some credit...read the strong opinions on so many issues one way or another and think for yourself how you would be able to find a way ahead through the morass that is public opinion...one that pleases even half of the people. Our politicians work miracles every day, and if you don't believe me, I can recommend a few travel destinations that will illustrate the point in vivid contrast. Honestly, I don't know how much more honest they could be in this case...the only cloak of national security I see here is one that you threw over the issue yourself...RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC


Bob Scott | President and CEO, AVSIM Inc
ATP Gulfstream II-III-IV-V

System1 (P3Dv5/v4): i9-13900KS @ 6.0GHz, water 2x360mm, ASUS Z790 Hero, 32GB GSkill 7800MHz CAS36, ASUS RTX4090
Samsung 55" JS8500 4K TV@30Hz,
3x 2TB WD SN850X 1x 4TB Crucial P3 M.2 NVME SSD, EVGA 1600T2 PSU, 1.2Gbps internet
Fiber link to Yamaha RX-V467 Home Theater Receiver, Polk/Klipsch 6" bookshelf speakers, Polk 12" subwoofer, 12.9" iPad Pro
PFC yoke/throttle quad/pedals with custom Hall sensor retrofit, Thermaltake View 71 case, Stream Deck XL button box

Sys2 (MSFS/XPlane): i9-10900K @ 5.1GHz, 32GB 3600/15, nVidia RTX4090FE, Alienware AW3821DW 38" 21:9 GSync, EVGA 1000P2
Thrustmaster TCA Boeing Yoke, TCA Airbus Sidestick, 2x TCA Airbus Throttle quads, PFC Cirrus Pedals, Coolermaster HAF932 case

Portable Sys3 (P3Dv4/FSX/DCS): i9-9900K @ 5.0 Ghz, Noctua NH-D15, 32GB 3200/16, EVGA RTX3090, Dell S2417DG 24" GSync
Corsair RM850x PSU, TM TCA Officer Pack, Saitek combat pedals, TM Warthog HOTAS, Coolermaster HAF XB case

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Guest tango_d

Hi All,Well I asked for your thoughts - Wow and we certainly got them !! Amazed at the number of responses so far....Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to reply. Obviously this one could go on for a while. Some really good posts here.Thanks and regards to you all,Eddy

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Guest B1900 Mech

THIS SAYS IT ALL."This is basically a ripple effect of Jeppesen's earlier refusal to pay Airservices Australia license fees for using its public data.My understanding is its now a copyright infringement suit against Jeppesen, which has greatly concerned other Navdata producers. Should Jeppesen lose this fight the effect could be much greater if other countries follow suit and expect Jepp to pay them license fee's to them as well.Its just a direction they 'might' go should this thing go against Jeppesen, and subject the DAFIF producers to similar legal action. It doesn't appear to be a done deal, just the start of a plan should it be needed right now.On the other hand I see it as interesting position for Jepp to be in. As they have basically been using public data, recompiling, and publishing it for their commercial use and charging license fee's. Regards.Ernie." CORPORATE PROFIT OFF OF TAXPAYERS DOLLARS!

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