Why isn't de-icing a requirement for clearance?

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

Ed :-)I left out the final decision for the last as it was quite funny.The Director left my friend behind and his wife who caught a later schedule.In that way he made his meeting and his wife didnt have to be terified at the thought of one pilot.As for the Salmon they were vital to the trip back and wouldnt be left at any cost :-)but the wife was expendable.Peter

[Guest Tim__757]

Hi Ed---Remember, "There are old pilots, and bold pilots......."Now what was that piece of yarn on the top of the wing for on the DC-9s?Tim__757

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

Tim and Ed >Further to Mike's post, I've seen Part 91 flights depart (instrument flights) in 1/8 sm and VV00. Very stupid, as you have no way of getting back down to land if you need to. But, the PIC is the "final authority" as to the operation of the flight. It's a bit like the captain of a ship who can do anything he/she wishes on the ship, and is virtually the law for all intents and purposes. Airplane pilots (at least those who are PIC, if more than 1 pilot is on board) have this same authority (which is why we are usually pragmatic "control frieks" ).

[brucek 38]

Hi Peter,"Tim and Ed >Further to Mike's post, I've seen Part 91 flights depart (instrument flights) in 1/8 sm and VV00. Very stupid, as you have no way of getting back down to land if you need to. But, the PIC is the "final authority" as to the operation of the flight. It's a bit like the captain of a ship who can do anything he/she wishes on the ship, and is virtually the law for all intents and purposes. Airplane pilots (at least those who are PIC, if more than 1 pilot is on board) have this same authority (which is why we are usually pragmatic "control frieks" ).:) ). Bruce.

[Guest tallpilot]

Peter,To answer your question. Lets take a King Air that is lightly loaded (for this weight will provide at least 500 ft/min climb single engine), the fog is local and there is at least basic VFR (here in the US 3 statute miles vis) at an alternate airport that is no more than 15 minutes a way and that airport has more than one usable runway. Yes I would depart part 91 with takeoff vis below landing vis. Now lets take a Baron that is loaded to max allowable takeoff weight and the performance charts show that for this weight at the current conditions it SHOULD only climb 190 ft/min, the answer is H*ll NO. We'll wait for the fog to clear and if the coustomer doesn't like it after I've explained why we are waiting, let him complain. At least he'll be alive to complain.Now you might say, well in the case of the King Air coulndn't the other engine quit on the way to you alternate? If I as the PIC have done my job. Insured that the airplane has been fueled properly and with the correct fuel. Ran the check list to insure that the fuel selectors are positioned properly for flight. Refused to fly an airplane that has not been maintained properly. Then the chances of a double engine failure are very very remote and that is what is called risk management. It's like you said, "always leave yourself an out" or as I said " always risk on the conservative side".Ed

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

EdI can be a bit colourful with some of my writing but I think we are talking the same language.It is all the unique bits which the pilot takes in, chews around that makes him swallow or spit the flight out.The decision to go or not to go can only be made through experience after weighing up all the options.Mine is simple! I will never do anything in aviation which involves relying on one door being open and the possibility that that door can close leaving you with no options left.Yes there is an inherant risk in flying which no one can safeguard against but the only way to avoid that is to stay at home and enjoy a boring life.I also appreciate that we should never encourage others to try things which may be out of their depth as it is so important to fly within your limits the aircrafts limits and above all to know what those limits are.Take carePeter

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

BruceThe advice you were given was correct. Firstly you are a ASEL.Any departure in fog or for that matter into a low cloudbase with poor vis in a single would leave you no options should the Donkey die.I personally would want at least 500 feet of clear air below the clouds in a single and enough visibility to choose a landing site.Second you should always fly within your own limits as well as the aircraft and know what those limits are.The pilot is a door to and if he gets into a situation which he cannot handle what doors remain open for him? so again a no go situation.Peter

[Guest Tim__757]

I liked the bit about "...should the donkey die." Next time I write up an engine failure (only had two, in a whale and three holer in 20 yrs) I will have to restrain myself from logging it as "Donkey Died".Kinda odd writing about this topic today, Dec 7th-the 1st commercial gig I flew for lost a King Air in Lake Michigan on this date in the early eighties. And the wx around here (KORD) is much like it was that day too. And the lessons from that...my 1st friends lost in accidents (there have been others since...)In taking Ed's example (after apropriate bow to my senior) we'd come off a small strip in Michigan in marginal conditions but ALWAYS had an alternate plan. The difference between aviators and button-pushers is how we understand, approach, respect all aspects of the craft.I look at Peter's "Yes there is an inherant risk in flying which no one can safeguard against..." then think of the countless accident reviews we sit thru in annual training reviews where we discuss root-cause analysis of accidents and incidents. Like the start of this thread, looking for what was "skipped, missed, mis-understood, mis-communicated, mis-diagnosed" or otherwise "went south" is a valuable learning tool.It helps to create that "Oh Geeze" mentality and humble us to the human side. Humans are different, our training, understanding, skill sets and attitudes sets us appart. It is what saves us, or kills us.I know Ed (another still bow to Sr.) and I have seen many changes-we recall when a de-icing pad was where we'd plug our car's engine block heater into before going into Ops...now they giant million dollar assemblies are all over North America. Wonder how we made it this far...I agree with Peter that our skills, comfort and personal limits within the "system" sets us apart.Tim__757

[Guest tallpilot]

Yes Peter,Same language, same book and same page. :-)I hope that our discussions help and encourage others to at least evaluate and consider our points of view in regards to flying safely.Ed

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

Ed Bruce and TimThanks for the chat which was very interesting. Anyway I have had enough poling twins around in all the rubbish and will stick with the Citation all singing and dancing Bravo.At least I can look down on all the rubbish below and remember bashing through it...... ;-)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/99947.jpg

[brucek 38]

Thanks Peter. And I'm green with envy at that pic below of the Citation :)Serioulsy though- if you're ever in the Denver area, it would be a pleasure to go flying with you, sir!Bruce.

[Guest tallpilot]

Ah yes Tim, we have seen the changes. I can remember when we converted the Convair 440's to 580's. We said this is great. All that power in reserve if we lose one. A hot wing so we don't have to worrry about a little icing. An autopilot that can fly the ILS. We're in "Hog Heaven". Then we lost one inverted into a hanger at ORD and we had to step back and say "hey this one can kill you too if your not carefull"As to how we've been able to make it this far is that we all know that all the Hollywood stuff in flying films is BS. :-) We've also been able to learn by other pilots mistakes. Now, if we can ever learn before the mistakes, so much the better.Take care,Ed