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Mephic

PF3 vs ProATCX for NGX - final "battle"

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Actually ATC when giving you clearance delivery don't assign SIDs on the fly. The SID is an already known part of your flightplan. Because it is the published route from a runway to your flightplan. As pilot in command you are required by aviation law to know what SIDs and STARs are in use and why. You can and should specify what SID you want to use as part of your fpl. Obviously if you are flying a scheduled route then ATC know where you intend to go and will always give you the SID of your choice automatically.

 

I'm sorry - but that is just blatantly false.  While a pilot/dispatcher may certainly include a SID (or even a STAR) in the filed flightplan, ATC is the final authority for determining what procedure must be flown.  In reality, ATC can and will assign new or alternate SIDS and STARS on the fly.  This just looks to me like an attempt to "sugar coat" the fact that PF3 doesn't do it while ProATC does.

 

Here's an example.  In my testing of ProATC last night, I was assigned runway 36 at SAEZ and told to expect vectors on-course after departure.  Since I didn't feel like waiting behind the AI traffic lining up for that runway, I requested runway 29 for takeoff.  ProATC approved my request and amended my clearance to include the TORUL1 SID with the URINO transition to join my flightplanned route.   That kind of functionality is only available in ProATC. 

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I'm sorry - but that is just blatantly false.  While a pilot/dispatcher may certainly include a SID (or even a STAR) in the filed flightplan, ATC is the final authority for determining what procedure must be flown.  In reality, ATC can and will assign new or alternate SIDS and STARS on the fly.  This just looks to me like an attempt to "sugar coat" the fact that PF3 doesn't do it while ProATC does.

 

Here's an example.  In my testing of ProATC last night, I was assigned runway 36 at SAEZ and told to expect vectors on-course after departure.  Since I didn't feel like waiting behind the AI traffic lining up for that runway, I requested runway 29 for takeoff.  ProATC approved my request and amended my clearance to include the TORUL1 SID with the URINO transition to join my flightplanned route.   That kind of functionality is only available in ProATC. 

The flightplan does not belong to ATC it is yours. ATC validate it i.e. accept it if it follows their requirements. And you can write SIDs and STARs into it. Bear in mind when you do that you would already know the departure/arrival runway. Even if you did not write a SID you would still know which SID would be given. So it is not plucked out of the air. If two SIDs end at the same fix then you need to know which one would be valid for your flight.

 

Suppose I am to take-off from rwy27. My flightplan is to the South East and only one SID takes me to the start of my fpl. You can write it in to your fpl. You don't need to wait to be told.

 

UL615 PZ493 UT939 C/45N012WF140F240 ROKIB UZ468 GIKEB EKPEB/N250F200 BRENO/F140 INN/F120 RTT/F95

 

Taking-off from rwy 04R there are two SIDs that route to ROKIB. But I want to cross the Alps. So in this fpl I am instructing ATC that I want to use the ROKIB 6J and not ROKIB 6S. And then end at the BRENO 2A STAR.

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The flightplan does not belong to ATC it is yours. ATC validate it i.e. accept it if it follows their requirements.

 

You can try to justify it all you want; but you're wrong.  What happens if the wind shifts at the last minute and ATC designates a new runway that's incompatible with your filed SID?  Do you re-file? No.  ATC issues a new SID based on the current operation.

 

What if you're perfectly-planned departure toward the Alps become unusable because of a thunderstorm?

 

The flightplan may belong to you... but the clearance belongs to ATC.  In the real world, ATC will not hesitate to change the route in your flightplan to suit their needs... you're not always cleared as filed!

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I own both and like ProATC/X better. The way it dynamically  assign SID's with a transition point is really cool. With PF3 your SID's and STAR's are part of the plan and you have to tell it where the SID ends and where the STAR starts. ProATC/X don't accept the procedure as part of the flight because it will get assign.

 

Another think that I like is the menu that you bring up by pressing 1. PF3 does not have that and you have to memorize all the commands available which are a lot. Last night for example PF3 clearance gave a departure runway which was totally opposite from the prevailing winds (using AS2016 here) and it took me awhile to request a change. It will ask you one by one which runway you want and you tell them yes or no. Of course there were 10 runways available and it took for ever. Really frustrating. I wish the author could add Navigraph support and an in sim menu.

 

I find myself using ProATC/X more but both are fun.

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ProATC X..........................................................

 

1. Control AI Traffic in air and on the ground (it's enough that it does not smash into my aircraft on the ground). YES
2. Assign SIDs and STARs dynamically YES
3. Have a built-in profile for 737 NGX with regards to descent rate (or at least programmable) YES
4. Have ability to assign hotkeys or use command menu built-in sim - I use my sim only in FullScreen. YES
5. Have ability to control ATC frequency by Co-Pilot but also without a need for him to talk (I have FS2Crew so 2 different copilot voices would destroy immersion). YES I also (always) use FS2Crew Reboot
6. Have not too robotic voice sets available by default YES
7. Emergency descent and landing options built in including vectors to final in such case YES
8. Rejected takeoff communication option/Go around communication YES
9. Communicate with AI Traffic around me YES
10. Not direct me into mountains like default ATC does when vectoring :)YES
11. Accept flight plans from SimBrief YES and every other flight planner
12. Assign departure/landing runways based on weather injected by AS16. YES
13. Ability to accept visual approaches YES
14. Easy to use hard to master :)YES
15. Transition altitudes matching particular countries requirements (or at least ability to edit that by country or by airport) and YES

 

PATC also has the option of assigning real ATC background via the DATA options menu i.e. ATC will change language according to the country you are overflying.

 

 

My landing (I blame the ILS) was, admittedly dodgy, but ProATC behaved perfectly all the way to the gate....;-) 

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I own both and like ProATC/X better. The way it dynamically  assign SID's with a transition point is really cool. With PF3 your SID's and STAR's are part of the plan and you have to tell it where the SID ends and where the STAR starts. ProATC/X don't accept the procedure as part of the flight because it will get assign.

 

Another think that I like is the menu that you bring up by pressing 1. PF3 does not have that and you have to memorize all the commands available which are a lot. Last night for example PF3 clearance gave a departure runway which was totally opposite from the prevailing winds (using AS2016 here) and it took me awhile to request a change. It will ask you one by one which runway you want and you tell them yes or no. Of course there were 10 runways available and it took for ever. Really frustrating. I wish the author could add Navigraph support and an in sim menu.

 

I find myself using ProATC/X more but both are fun.

 

A nice proof that it's about personal preference between these two.

To me the lack of a menu is in fact one of the advantages of PF3. I don't like in-sim menues because they spoil the immersion for me.

I use voice recognition via Multi Crew Experience to trigger the hotkeys so no need to memorize them. And Multi Crew Experience also simplifies the runway change request (You can just ask for e.g. "Ground, Delta 123 requesting runway 08L for takeoff").

 

Regarding the runway assignment by PF3 it is essential that the AI is refreshed (for example by setting the sim rate to 8 and back to 1) after the weather has completely loaded and only then connect PF3. Also "Force ATC wind lock" should be enabled in AS2016. That way the runway assignment is correct most of the time.

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Well it seems to me that PF3 is really nice but it just needs too much input. Basically you need to preset all parametres to have them generated in sim in exactly same way that you have set them.

 

On one hand that's good because it will do what you want it to do on the other it is a bit of immersion killer to me that there is little to none randomness in ATC behavior. Also locking winds is another thing which kills it IMHO.

 

As I'll be buying software in January I same till have few weeks to think but AIRAC integration, SIDS and STARS assignments on the fly and in sim menu seem to be really nice features and I think I'll go with PRO ATC. Thanks all.

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You can try to justify it all you want; but you're wrong.  What happens if the wind shifts at the last minute and ATC designates a new runway that's incompatible with your filed SID?  Do you re-file? No.  ATC issues a new SID based on the current operation.

 

What if you're perfectly-planned departure toward the Alps become unusable because of a thunderstorm?

 

The flightplan may belong to you... but the clearance belongs to ATC.  In the real world, ATC will not hesitate to change the route in your flightplan to suit their needs... you're not always cleared as filed!

It is clear that you don't look at charts which is a legal requirement btw for real pilots. If you were to you would see that I am perfectly correct. Not only that perhaps you ought to contact Eurocontrol and tell them that they should never have authorised that flightplan seeing as it is used by Air Dolomiti. If a dispatcher makes a mistake and you follow that mistake even unknowingly then you are responsible, not the dispatcher.

 

The flightplan may belong to you... but the clearance belongs to ATC.  In the real world, ATC will not hesitate to change the route in your flightplan to suit their needs... you're not always cleared as filed!

AS PIC I can change my fpl en-route. ATC only advise. They cannot force me to do anything. The Captian has the ultimate say. As long as I have good reason I can defy ATC. ATC might ask me to divert but that is only a recommendation. I can reject it if I have good reason. Fuel, weather, out of hours to name a few.

 

What if you're perfectly-planned departure toward the Alps become unusable because of a thunderstorm?

Then the flight is delayed, cancelled or diverted. PIlots here are not in the habit of flying through storms. Enac follows the UK CAA doctrine and training recommendations which is why Italian pilots are better trained then the French!

 

What happens if the wind shifts at the last minute and ATC designates a new runway that's incompatible with your filed SID? Not a problem. It takes seconds to re file if there is likely to be a runway change (a rare event at LIPZ). And in fact the dispatcher would file an alternative fpl. if the weather suggested that that might happen.

 

UL615 PZ493 UT939 C/45N012WF140F240 ROKIB UZ468 GIKEB EKPEB/N250F200 BRENO/F140 INN/F120 RTT/F95

 

This fpl also gives one the opportunity to shoot for both rwy 08 and 26 at Innsbruck. There is only one entry point from Italian airspace. And although one could get BRENO 1A for rwy 08 the problem there is the fickle Alpine Valley wind. If one took that STAR and there was a a rwy change that would result in a 70nm diversion. So this routing is more commonly used instead.

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Well it seems to me that PF3 is really nice but it just needs too much input. Basically you need to preset all parametres to have them generated in sim in exactly same way that you have set them.

On one hand that's good because it will do what you want it to do on the other it is a bit of immersion killer to me that there is little to none randomness in ATC behavior. Also locking winds is another thing which kills it IMHO.

As I'll be buying software in January I same till have few weeks to think but AIRAC integration, SIDS and STARS assignments on the fly and in sim menu seem to be really nice features and I think I'll go with PRO ATC. Thanks all.

There's already some randomness built in PF3 (holding probability, speed and altitude assignments). And with the addon PF3-Randomizer you can easily add a lot more randomness regarding probability of vectoring and procedures.

 

The ATC wind lock recommendation is nothing special to PF3. Without it you might have AI aircraft landing and taking off face to face in calm and light or variable winds.

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Guest JustanotherPilot

A feature I like with ProatcX is the ability to create a flightplan, nominating the airline fltNo, Dep/Arr, pasting the realworld route(if you desire) otherwise it will create the plan for you with SID,STAR. (the STAR can change, depending on the en-route weather). You can then export to FSX/P3D(and others) for later import into AS2016. A number of user voice sets have just been made available, free, in English, but accented, to add to the immersion, in conjunction with the background ATC chatter files option, it can be made to sound very realistic. PF3 has much potential and worthy for consideration, but at the moment, after the recent upgrade from ProatcX I'm very happy with it.

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You can try to justify it all you want; but you're wrong.  What happens if the wind shifts at the last minute and ATC designates a new runway that's incompatible with your filed SID?  Do you re-file? No.  ATC issues a new SID based on the current operation.

 

What if you're perfectly-planned departure toward the Alps become unusable because of a thunderstorm?

 

The flightplan may belong to you... but the clearance belongs to ATC.  In the real world, ATC will not hesitate to change the route in your flightplan to suit their needs... you're not always cleared as filed!

 

I agree completely. I have stopped requesting SIDs (unless the A/FD specifically requires it) because I know ATC will give me what they want me to fly in my IFR Clearance.  I can request what I want to fly all day long, but if it doesn't work with the current traffic flows I will never get it. You can do what makes sense, but sometimes all ATC wants you to do is fly a vector to an assigned altitude upon takeoff. A good example is flying in SOCAL airspace. Whenever I would leave the area, I was always vectored out over the ocean, past Catalina then to the north until I have sufficient altitude to avoid the LAX departures and arrivals. 

 

ATC doesn't care about your flightplan. Reroutes are common. They care about getting you to your destination, as safely as possible. That's it. Request a route in a busy airspace and get your pencil ready for a reroute. 

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It is clear that you don't look at charts which is a legal requirement btw for real pilots. If you were to you would see that I am perfectly correct.

 

Really???  My billing statements from Navigraph (Charts) might prove otherwise.

 

 

 


AS PIC I can change my fpl en-route. ATC only advise. They cannot force me to do anything. The Captian has the ultimate say. As long as I have good reason I can defy ATC. ATC might ask me to divert but that is only a recommendation. I can reject it if I have good reason. Fuel, weather, out of hours to name a few.

 

I'll agree with you on one thing...the PIC has final authority for the operation of the aircraft.  Thank you for your entertaining interpretation of the regs.  For both of our sakes, I would ask that you try to avoid flying in U.S. airspace.

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