777 Nearly Slams into Mt Wilson after LAX takeoff

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

you mean like DTW?

oh man, that place is a mess

[skelsey 765]

 

 

Take your hate for the US elsewhere.

 

No hate for the USA here. But there is a reason ICAO have established standard RT phraseology -- so that communication is clear and unequivocal. I get that many pilots in much of US airspace are native English speakers, but where international pilots whose first language is not English operating the non-standard, rapid-fire nature of US ATC causes problems, time and time again. And here is yet another example.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that standard RT would not have improved the outcome of this incident?

 

The whole thing could have been prevented -- yes, by the controller -- before it came anywhere near causing any sort of incident. The LiveATC recording is slightly clipped in places, but the first opportunity came as soon as the first instruction was issued:

 

Eva 015 Heavy, fly heading 090.

 

Left heading 090, Eva 015 heavy.

 

If the controller had actually listened to the readback and corrected it -- no incident.

 

Instead, we then got a stream of increasingly incoherent comms. Instructions to stop climb with no level to stop at, turn left, no right, no left, no "southbound", climb 7000, no 5000, stop your climb, and stop your turn, no actually expedite your climb (where?) and expedite your turn. Confirm which heading? "Southbound". Maintain 5000, no climb 6000, no 7000. I see you going southbound, no northbound, turn...

 

Chaos. 

 

I am not saying that the crew had no part in this, and there are lots of questions to be asked about their SA. But the RT played a significant part in this incident.

[Jim Young 2,356]

Theres a reason the FAA and the US has and still is the gold standard for aviation around the world.

 

you sound like a complete idiot when you make comments like these. Take your hate for the US elsewhere.

There was nothing out of line in the way that controller handled that. First off, its JFK. a huge mess of an airport. you guys act like being a controller is a cake walk. Try working ground and having this guy come on the radio who cant even speak english. LEARN ENGLISH! ITS THE ICAO standard language. Its now the controllers problem because he has to repeat aomething five or six times instead of once.

 

Its ridiculous that you two would actually judge and criticize the controller and not even mention the pilot getting every instruction wrong.

 

These controllers dont have time for this kind of crap. They also dont have time for pilots who arent listening. They are juggling at least 6 to 10 fifferent airplanes.

 

When im flying, i want a controller who is going to get things done and not worry aboit other peoples feelings.

 

As for the incident in LA, the controller is extremely lucky. Im glad it didnt end much worse. Its a very good lesson in complacency that both pilots and controllers can use to make themselves better.

Totally disagree with your comments but then I have never been a pilot of any sort.  When the controller said "Air China" that should have given him a clue there may be a language issue.  This is getting off topic from the OP so I'll leave it at that.  Just wanted to make sure you know I disagree with your comments totally for whatever its worth.

[n4gix 4,947]

It seems to me that the first mistake was telling them to "Stop your climb." Had she not said that, they would have easily cleared the summit of Mount Wilson. Note that the Air Canada flight was already above 7000' by the time they reached that range of mountains.

 

I also agree that sticking to standard RT phraseology would have possibly reduced confusion.

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

No hate for the USA here. But there is a reason ICAO have established standard RT phraseology -- so that communication is clear and unequivocal. I get that many pilots in much of US airspace are native English speakers, but where international pilots whose first language is not English operating the non-standard, rapid-fire nature of US ATC causes problems, time and time again. And here is yet another example.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that standard RT would not have improved the outcome of this incident?

 

The whole thing could have been prevented -- yes, by the controller -- before it came anywhere near causing any sort of incident. The LiveATC recording is slightly clipped in places, but the first opportunity came as soon as the first instruction was issued:

 

Eva 015 Heavy, fly heading 090.

 

Left heading 090, Eva 015 heavy.

 

If the controller had actually listened to the readback and corrected it -- no incident.

 

Instead, we then got a stream of increasingly incoherent comms. Instructions to stop climb with no level to stop at, turn left, no right, no left, no "southbound", climb 7000, no 5000, stop your climb, and stop your turn, no actually expedite your climb (where?) and expedite your turn. Confirm which heading? "Southbound". Maintain 5000, no climb 6000, no 7000. I see you going southbound, no northbound, turn...

 

Chaos. 

 

I am not saying that the crew had no part in this, and there are lots of questions to be asked about their SA. But the RT played a significant part in this incident.

I agree with you that the controller is completely at fault here. However, i was talking about the video you linked in your post. Not the actual event in LA. my apologies, i should have been more clear on that one.

 

Having said that...theres other factors that any pilot could take from this even though it wasnt their fault.

[jmdriskell 178]

Dean Martin's son was a low time pilot who had never been thru the AF flight training program but had been granted wavers that allowed him to fly with the AF.  Frank Sinatra's mother was also killed when she was a passenger in a Lear out of Palm Springs that hit the side of Mount San Gorgonio (11,500+ ft).  In both of these cases, the pilots didn't allow for the terrain so pilot error caused the crashes.  Apparently the 777 crew  didn't appreciate the terrain even though ATC may have contributed to the initial confusion. 

[757FO 143]

Quite. Standard RT anyone?

 

Oh no, I forgot, this is the USA. Talk as fast as humanly possible, make sure you sound cool, no need to listen to readbacks and if the pilot doesn't understand just

(or don't, but hey, that's their problem, right?).

 

Accident waiting to happen. Just glad it wasn't this time.

Simon,

 

there are other countries where ATC violates ICAO standards, it's not only in the US, and I do take offence when I read "I forgot, this is the USA". I do fly to many places in the world, and if you think that this kind of incident (I am referring to the ATC JFK ground exchange) only happens in the U.S, you are dead wrong. Try flying to a country where controllers do not even bother to stick to ICAO standard by not speaking English with the local traffic & international flights are in the same airspace (ground included), in the case I am thinking of, I was right behind a local traffic and had no idea what instructions were given. I can give you many examples of ATC screw ups outside the U.S. I don't accept your generalization of the U.S ATC system, like anywhere else, there are bad apples, and although the JFK controller was rude, he asked a question repeatably that was not appropriately responded by the flight crew.

 

Try putting yourself in the seat of a ground controller at a busy airport at rush hour, no matter what country it is, and you will realize that it is not about sounding cool, but about getting the traffic flow moving in a safe manner. They need to deal with delays, clearance amendments due to weather, move traffic to holding area and the list goes on. I was #20 in the queue on my last flight, think about having to deal with getting these airplanes to the runway, deal with arriving traffic, delays, holds, and so on. They have a very stressful job.

 

 In the LA case ATC clearly made a mistake, but I also blame the flight crew for not taking evasive actions sooner or question ATC. I can assure you that if I am heading straight to a mountain and ATC is not moving me, I will declare an emergency and move to a safer place. We have tools in the cockpit to help us assess what is around us. 

 

In the end, I am glad that everyone walked away safely from the LAX incident.

 

I am sure some will disagree with me, but I wanted to give my perspective as an active airline pilot here in the U.S

 

Best regards,

John

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

"EVA 015 Heavy, what are you doing? Turn southbound now, southbound now. Stop your climb"

Sounds to me like she is a frustrated mother berating her children.
 

there are other countries where ATC violates ICAO standard, it's not only in the US, and I do take offence when I read "I forgot, this is the USA".

Yes and some countries are very by the book. I live in New Zealand which is small and well managed which leads to a very by the book culture of doing things for which people take pride in themselves. This is just the Kiwi Culture by comparison. The moment we enter the USA it is immediate the differences.

[Jim Young 2,356]

 

 

I agree with you that the controller is completely at fault here. However, i was talking about the video you linked in your post. Not the actual event in LA. my apologies, i should have been more clear on that one.

 

No I was speaking about the JFK Controller talking to Air China.

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

No I was speaking about the JFK Controller talking to Air China.

i stsnd by my opinions on that one. Agree to disagree!

Simon,

 

there are other countries where ATC violates ICAO standards, it's not only in the US, and I do take offence when I read "I forgot, this is the USA". I do fly to many places in the world, and if you think that this kind of incident (I am referring to the ATC JFK ground exchange) only happens in the U.S, you are dead wrong. Try flying to a country where controllers do not even bother to stick to ICAO standard by not speaking English with the local traffic & international flights are in the same airspace (ground included), in the case I am thinking of, I was right behind a local traffic and had no idea what instructions were given. I can give you many examples of ATC screw ups outside the U.S. I don't accept your generalization of the U.S ATC system, like anywhere else, there are bad apples, and although the JFK controller was rude, he asked a question repeatably that was not appropriately responded by the flight crew.

 

Try putting yourself in the seat of a ground controller at a busy airport at rush hour, no matter what country it is, and you will realize that it is not about sounding cool, but about getting the traffic flow moving in a safe manner. They need to deal with delays, clearance amendments due to weather, move traffic to holding area and the list goes on. I was #20 in the queue on my last flight, think about having to deal with getting these airplanes to the runway, deal with arriving traffic, delays, holds, and so on. They have a very stressful job.

 

In the LA case ATC clearly made a mistake, but I also blame the flight crew for not taking evasive actions sooner or question ATC. I can assure you that if I am heading straight to a mountain and ATC is not moving me, I will declare an emergency and move to a safer place. We have tools in the cockpit to help us assess what is around us.

 

In the end, I am glad that everyone walked away safely from the LAX incident.

 

I am sure some will disagree with me, but I wanted to give my perspective as an active airline pilot here in the U.S

 

Best regards,

John

I couldnt have said it better myself. Completely agree with you.

"EVA 015 Heavy, what are you doing? Turn southbound now, southbound now. Stop your climb"Sounds to me like she is a frustrated mother with small children who won't listen to her. Yes and some countries are very by the book. I live in New Zealand which is small and well managed which leads to a very by the book culture of doing things for which people take pride in themselves. This is just the Kiwi Culture by comparison. The moment we enter the USA it is immediate the differences.

How much traffic does your country move in a day, in an hour, in a minute? Lets compare apples to apples here. Put one of your controllers in a local or ground position at KORD and lets see what happens to them. IM Not saying they cant handle it. I am saying that they will find ways to cope with everything and that will show itself in the same ways everythinks the usa does things wrongly.

[skelsey 765]

Hi John,

 

 

 

here are other countries where ATC violates ICAO standard, it's not only in the US, and I do take offence when I read "I forgot, this is the USA". I do fly to many places in the world, and if you think that this kind of incident (I am referring to the ATC JFK ground exchange) only happens in the U.S, you are dead wrong. Try flying to a country where controllers do not even bother to stick to ICAO standard by not speaking English with the local traffic & international flights are in the same airspace (ground included), in the case I am thinking of, I was right behind a local traffic and had no idea what instructions were given. I can give you many examples of ATC screw ups outside the U.S. I don't accept your generalization of the U.S ATC system, like anywhere else, there are bad apples, and although the JFK controller was rude, he asked a question repeatably that was not appropriately responded by the flight crew.

 

Sure - and I agree, places where there are multiple languages being spoken on frequency are unsafe as well. I accept that I was being slightly pointed in my criticism. However, I would also argue that two wrongs do not make a right. There are other airports and airspaces in the world that are as busy, if not busier, too and yet controllers there generally manage to cope without speaking at a hundred miles an hour in non-ICAO standard phraseology.

 

Nobody is denying that ATC have a tough job -- of course they do. However, in the case of the JFK ground exchange, the crew weren't not responding appropriately because they were being obnoxious or obstructive -- they simply didn't understand. They were a foreign crew, with, yes, much worse than ideal English, at an airfield with a notoriously complex ground layout and an unusual (to a non-US crew) system whereby the actual stands are not under the control of ATC. They may or may not visit JFK regularly (I would guess not), either way they were no doubt tired after a long flight.

 

With all this in mind, was safety enhanced by the controller  confronting them with a series of rapid-fire instructions and eventually just repeatedly shouting the same question (that the crew clearly couldn't understand, and in fact misconstrued as a clearance -- no doubt due to the fact that the controller kept shouting CLEARED TO THE GATE), no doubt piling up the stress levels both on the flight deck and in the tower?

 

Of course, it takes two to tango in both examples -- at JFK the crew's English proficiency and level of briefing was definitely questionable, and in LAX too there are big questions around the crew's terrain awareness and/or assertiveness -- either they didn't know/brief the terrain was there or didn't realise where they were going relative to it, which is inexcusable, or they did know and didn't say or do anything, which is even more inexcusable. All holes in the cheese, but more disciplined (and, dare I say, ICAO-compliant) RT procedures would have helped.

 

Best,

 

Simon

[Johan_Dees 84]

I think the poster tries to tell us about the US/UK english speaking natives, that they tend to talk to fast, and expect that non english speakers

understand them well.

Meaning, that tourists abroad almost speak one language: English, and altough a lot of English is used worldwide, most people dont, or understand is badly. Just some basic phrases and thats it. Seeing it daily in my job.

 

Above is not related to poort atc performance or of the crew.

 

I like btw how BOSTON JOHN its doing in his clearances. KEY words are being emphasized and spoken slow.

See youtube, thats how it should be done!

 

Blabla 1234, CLEARED for takeoff, TURN LEFT to 180, climb to 5000, contact DEPARTURE on xxx.xxx

 

He does that very good.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

How much traffic does your country move in a day, in an hour, in a minute? Lets compare apples to apples here. Put one of your controllers in a local or ground position at KORD and lets see what happens to them. IM Not saying they cant handle it. I am saying that they will find ways to cope with everything and that will show itself in the same ways everythinks the usa does things wrongly.

Auckland is the fourth busiest airport in the South Pacific and operates on a single runway. It is rated in the top 3 airports in the world for handling aircraft, we know what we are doing and we hold ourselves to a higher standard. Also you have to consider the ratio of controllers to aircraft as in smaller regions are not as many people controlling, therefore still has its demands.

 

You bet if we went to KORD we would definitely roll our eyes at some of the terminology used or some of the way they handle aircraft by comparison.

[bonchie 2,305]

Auckland is the fourth busiest airport in the South Pacific and rated in the top 3 airports in the world for handling aircraft. We know what we are doing and we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

 

Also you have to consider the ratio of controllers to aircraft as in smaller regions are not as many people controlling, therefore still has its demands.

 

You bet if we went to KORD we would definitely roll our eyes at some of the terminology used or some of the way they handle aircraft by comparison.

 

Let's be real. You just want to chest thump about how great New Zealand is and how terrible the US is. It's transparent that's the only reason you are posting based on the tone of your posts.

 

But if you want to make the comparison, NZAA only has two runways and handles about 20 flights an hour. KORD has 8 runways and handles about 105 flights an hour. Oh yeah, and there are 2 other major airports in the same approach area. It's not even close to the same situation.

 

I'd also guarantee you that there are times when New Zealand controllers make mistakes or abbreviate terminology.

If you aren't a pilot in an incredibly busy area, you simply won't understand. It's easy for armchair simmers to sit around and cast dispersion but it's different in the air. A controller for Chicago approach simply does not have time to talk slowly or constantly repeat themselves because someone can't understand English. It would endanger many other flights to do that regularly. Pilots are expected to be fluent enough to understand ATC. If they can't then they shouldn't be flying in that area. And if a controller has to repeat themselves 5-6 times, then that's not the controller's fault.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

But if you want to make the comparison, NZAA only has two runways and handles about 20 flights an hour. KORD has 8 runways and handles about 105 flights an hour.

45 flights per hour on a single runway compared to 105 flights per hour on multiple runways. Also less controllers working so the demands are not too far off all things considered. Not sure where you get 20 from

 

I am simply pointing out differences in culture not chest thumping, I guess you can't appreciate that or are just a grumpy individual. I am not from New Zealand as I was born in Toronto to parents from the USA. I have lived in USA Canada Australia and New Zealand. You can learn from differences or you can be blind to them, choice is yours