777 Nearly Slams into Mt Wilson after LAX takeoff

[swiesma 625]

 

Instead, we then got a stream of increasingly incoherent comms. Instructions to stop climb with no level to stop at, turn left, no right, no left, no "southbound", climb 7000, no 5000, stop your climb, and stop your turn, no actually expedite your climb (where?) and expedite your turn. Confirm which heading? "Southbound". Maintain 5000, no climb 6000, no 7000. I see you going southbound, no northbound, turn...

 

Chaos. 

 

I am not saying that the crew had no part in this, and there are lots of questions to be asked about their SA. But the RT played a significant part in this incident.

 

Exactly what I thought when I first heard the LiveATC transmission.

First she tells them to make a left to 180, which means they fly an orbit. Ok, could be questioned by the pilots, but then I again I assume they know what they are doing when I read it back the same way and it's ok.

Then she teels to stop climbing, make right turn, then again a left turn to 270, then "southbound" (whatever a pilot should do here), then climbing.....

 

The pilot sounded like his English was pretty good for China standards, the readbacks were correct, only in the end he seemed nervous and confused, I can understand that.

It is hard to see from the transcripts and the video what the EVA Air crew did in the cockpit and why they did not turn immediately.

 

But the big part here is ATC.

 

 

Also I agree on ICAO standards and "fast speaking" in the US.

 

Here is a video:

 

At 3:45 - this explains what people here are talking about when they "bash" the US. Even the well trianed Lufthansa pilots are a little bit confused here.

 

6:35 is also very funny ;-) Sounds like she's sleep walking...

[out 769]

Here is a video

 

A great video, by the way. :smile:

One of my favourites from Pilotseye.

[HighBypass 2,339]

I would have thought terms such as southbound, westbound, etc. etc. are too vague for ATC instructions even though a heading may be implied. 

[Jim Young 2,356]

My FAA license has an English proficiency endorsement.

 

 

I would not cut him any slack either Jim.

 

I apologize for my potentially offensive comments (especially to Bluestar) about the controller who decided to let an Air China pilot/FO get his full wrath of fury for not communicating properly with him.  I know I have no expertise in this area and I should not have commented but the JFK controller sounded worse than my drill sergeant in 1963 and brought back horrible memories :smile: .  Hey!  Maybe it was my old drill sergeant!!     Oh, there I go again!  Getting off topic.  But I now agree, the AirChina pilot should have known better as that is the way it is in the real world.

 

 

 

Any way, Merry Xmas everyone. Or do you have to say Happy Holidays ?

 

Well, I don't say Merry Xmas OR Happy Holidays for sure!  I hate it when we 'X' out Christ.  So, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!  That's what I say!

 

Best regards,

Jim

[BlueStar 323]

 

 

I apologize for my potentially offensive comments (especially to Bluestar) about the controller who decided to let an Air China pilot/FO get his full wrath of fury for not communicating properly with him.

 

Jim,

 

No problem. :smile: 

 

Some of the crews where English is not their native language really struggle when they are in congested air space.  I hear the ???? in their read backs. 

 

I also deal with ATC where English is not the native language and will occasionally have trouble understanding the controller.  Of course they probably have trouble understanding me with my accent, so I guess it goes both ways. :smile: 

 

blaustern 

[Johan_Dees 84]

 

 

At 3:45 - this explains what people here are talking about when they "bash" the US. Even the well trianed Lufthansa pilots are a little bit confused here.

 

6:35 is also very funny ;-) Sounds like she's sleep walking...

 

Haha, smooth operator he said!. yes indeed.

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

Hi Folks,

 

She was bad - not THIS bad though... My favorite clip of ATC behaving badly...

Both the crew of 1448 and the controller are gravely at fault.

 

A ground violation and a runway incursion by the crew of 1448. 1448 gave their position wrongly twice to the controller which gave her a completely wrong idea as to where they were. 1448 messed up big time. It all started with them.

 

The controller should have never ever issued any clearances once 1448 said they didn't know where they were.

[scottb613 1,186]

Hi Mathew,

 

Concur - however - the crew in the plane was clearly trying to rectify the situation from the outset - the controller was actively attempting to make it worse - lol - with no skin in the game... I believe the subsequent investigation faulted the runway layout and signage as well...

 

Regards,

Scott

[BlueStar 323]

 

 

At 3:45 - this explains what people here are talking about when they "bash" the US. Even the well trianed Lufthansa pilots are a little bit confused here

 

Stefan,

 

I have listened to this several times and am having trouble understanding your "bash" comments and where the LH pilots "are a little bit confused" ?

 

blaustern

[scotchegg 4,159]

It's an observed irony that native speakers cause more communication problems than non-native:

 

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20161028-native-english-speakers-are-the-worlds-worst-communicators

[TPerson 15]

Exactly what I thought when I first heard the LiveATC transmission.

First she tells them to make a left to 180, which means they fly an orbit. Ok, could be questioned by the pilots, but then I again I assume they know what they are doing when I read it back the same way and it's ok.

Then she teels to stop climbing, make right turn, then again a left turn to 270, then "southbound" (whatever a pilot should do here), then climbing.....

 

The pilot sounded like his English was pretty good for China standards, the readbacks were correct, only in the end he seemed nervous and confused, I can understand that.

It is hard to see from the transcripts and the video what the EVA Air crew did in the cockpit and why they did not turn immediately.

 

But the big part here is ATC.

 

 

 

Regarding the LAX incident.

 

While I agree that the controller made things worse you do have to question the pilot's actions.  If you look at the video linked in post #7 soon after they were told to turn left heading 180, they were told to turn right heading 180 (ATC controller correcting her mistake) and immediately afterwards told to Expedite Right Turn.  The aircrew responded:

 

Eva 015 Heavy, roger, passing heading 010, continue right heading.

 

Passing heading 010 sounds like they were continuing to turn but notice after that "expedite right turn" instruction, they never did perform a right turn to heading 180.  It seems as though they stopped their turn and continued on a heading of maybe 010.

 

So it seems (at least to me) that the aircrew is to blame because the controller gave them a corrected instruction and the aircrew never acted on that instruction.

 

Todd

[skelsey 765]

I have listened to this several times and am having trouble understanding your "bash" comments and where the LH pilots "are a little bit confused" ?

 

I thought it was fairly obvious -- as soon as they spoke to the Seattle Approach controller they immediately commented on the insane pace at which the controller was speaking. Then when they were instructed to "reducespeedtooneninezero" the FO clearly didn't initially comprehend the instruction, though the Captain fortunately realised and explained (and, again, commented on the atrocious, confusing phraseology). Then there was a handover, which they read back -- fortunately they didn't change over immediately because the controller who had just handed them off then gave them another heading to fly and they clearly weren't expecting that either.

 

Obviously the LH pilots had a very good standard of spoken English -- even so there were a couple of times where the rate of speech and non-ICAO phraseology left them at least close to confusion, though it never got as far as that. Replace the Captain, for instance, with someone with just a slightly lower standard of spoken English and you could imagine how it might have taken a fair few seconds of time and discussion to work out what that speed instruction was, for instance.

 

If the sectors are so busy that the only way to work the traffic is to speak at that ridiculous pace then the system is at fault. What happened to "speak slowly and clearly, maintaining an even rate of speech of not more than 100 words per minute"?

 

Regarding the LAX incident.

 

While I agree that the controller made things worse you do have to question the pilot's actions.  If you look at the video linked in post #7 soon after they were told to turn left heading 180, they were told to turn right heading 180 (ATC controller correcting her mistake) and immediately afterwards told to Expedite Right Turn.  The aircrew responded:

 

Eva 015 Heavy, roger, passing heading 010, continue right heading.

 

Passing heading 010 sounds like they were continuing to turn but notice after that "expedite right turn" instruction, they never did perform a right turn to heading 180.  It seems as though they stopped their turn and continued on a heading of maybe 010.

 

So it seems (at least to me) that the aircrew is to blame because the controller gave them a corrected instruction and the aircrew never acted on that instruction.

 

The aircrew could certainly have performed better, but there are two important factors to remember:

 

1) A B777 established in a full HDG SEL bank to the left takes a little while to reverse direction -- it's not a fighter!

2) I don't know what the radar update rate is like in SOCAL Tracon, but there could be as much as ten seconds between 'sweeps'. This means that if the crew did initiate a right turn immediately, it might take as much as 20 seconds (and possibly 30) for it to fully register on the controller's screen (and FR24 is not known for pinpoint accuracy of tracks either)

 

The problem is that within about 30 seconds they then got another reversal of turn direction, this time left again to 270. So again, they have to reverse the direction of turn (which again is going to take time). By all accounts they started doing that, but within about ten seconds the controller then tells them to turn "southbound". 

 

Now this is really confusing. So you start turning left (again), through a northerly heading (what other way could you go having been given a left turn from the heading they were on) to heading 270 (westbound) and as you are in the process of carrying out the instruction the controller starts yelling at you to go "southbound" instead. But seconds ago she'd just turned them "northbound" on to a "westbound" heading?

 

Then to compound the issues whilst you're trying to translate and decode that weird, non-standard set of transmissions between you in the flight deck, the EGPWS starts blaring.

 

How much chance, as a (presumably) south Asian crew with English as a second (who knows, perhaps even third or fourth) language did they have really given that set and timing of transmissions?

[BlueStar 323]

 

 

I thought it was fairly obvious --

 

You are not a commercial pilot are you?

 

blaustern

[TPerson 15]

The aircrew could certainly have performed better, but there are two important factors to remember:

 

1) A B777 established in a full HDG SEL bank to the left takes a little while to reverse direction -- it's not a fighter!

2) I don't know what the radar update rate is like in SOCAL Tracon, but there could be as much as ten seconds between 'sweeps'. This means that if the crew did initiate a right turn immediately, it might take as much as 20 seconds (and possibly 30) for it to fully register on the controller's screen (and FR24 is not known for pinpoint accuracy of tracks either)

 

The problem is that within about 30 seconds they then got another reversal of turn direction, this time left again to 270. So again, they have to reverse the direction of turn (which again is going to take time). By all accounts they started doing that, but within about ten seconds the controller then tells them to turn "southbound". 

 

Now this is really confusing. So you start turning left (again), through a northerly heading (what other way could you go having been given a left turn from the heading they were on) to heading 270 (westbound) and as you are in the process of carrying out the instruction the controller starts yelling at you to go "southbound" instead. But seconds ago she'd just turned them "northbound" on to a "westbound" heading?

 

 

OK point considered regarding the turning capability of a 777, the radar refresh rates, and the Flightradar track accuracy, but if you were the ATC controller in that situation and (with the radar refresh rates you mentioned in mind) throwing out the confusing "turn southbound" instructions, what would you have done differently knowing that on your radar screen you see an aircraft heading straight for the San Gabriel mountains that you had given instructions to turn right heading 180?

 

The point of my previous post was did the aircrew possibly misunderstand the turn right to heading 180 and expedite right turn instructions because their readback was continue right heading?

 

Todd

[skelsey 765]

 

You are not a commercial pilot are you?

 

No, but is it necessary to be one in order to interpret:

 

ATC: "Lufthansafourninetyheavyreducespeedtoone...ninerzero"

 

FO and Capt stare at each other.

 

FO: "............................what?"

 

as a fairly obvious indication of confusion?

 

Followed by:

 

Capt: "That's exactly the way you must not call it. That's a no-no on the radio."

 

As I say, in this case the Captain did, after a beat, figure it out. But how quickly would a crew with ICAO Level 4 English?

 

 

 

OK point considered regarding the turning capability of a 777, the radar refresh rates, and the Flightradar track accuracy, but if you were the ATC controller in that situation and (with the radar refresh rates you mentioned in mind) throwing out the confusing "turn southbound" instructions, what would you have done differently knowing that on your radar screen you see an aircraft heading straight for the San Gabriel mountains that you had given instructions to turn right heading 180?

 

The point of my previous post was did the aircrew possibly misunderstand the turn right to heading 180 and expedite right turn instructions because their readback was continue right heading?

Quite possibly (though I think I had read somewhere that the more accurate FAA data did suggest that a right turn had been commenced?) (although I must also stress that we should be a little careful of the LiveATC recording because it is clearly clipped in places -- the FAA, for instance, confirmed that the controller did issue the initial left turn, which is very clearly clipped from the recording at 1:14 on the YouTube video, so it's not out of the question that "....180" could also have been clipped from EVA's readback). I understand where you're coming from -- my point is more about why the crew became so confused.

 

What would I have done? It's difficult to say any one thing because by that point the confusion was absolute and the crews' response is also going to be coloured by the fact that the heading (and direction of turn) changed in almost every transmission up to that point, from left 180 initially to right 180, then back to left 270, and then "southbound" which could mean anything (and even when they asked her to confirm the heading she still just said "southbound" -- imagine that, presumably with the last actual heading - 270 - set on the MCP and then try and marry that up to make any sense at all). Yet another factor in amongst it all is the urgent "stop your climb!" immediately after the right to 180, which could well have taken the crew's attention away from sorting out the heading to the, at that moment, seemingly far more urgent requirement to level off to avoid what must have sounded like an imminent midair.