LES Saab 340?

[LAdamson 240]

Agreed...but what's the hassle? Never had an issue with any purchase from X-Aviation.

Same here. No problem with X-Aviation

[gassa 36]

The comments of Ben Russell on several forums also made me stop buying from X-Aviation. It's a highly rude and unprofessional attitude. Some guys at X-Aviation seem to be really pi##ed by the release of XEnviro and act like grumpy kids who get send to bed early (see the above link to the discussion on facebook). I still don't get the reason for it, as both products have their pros and cons. Just let the customer choose.

 

It's a real pitty because I would love to have the Saab in my hangar (as well as the upcomming Citation) but with this attitude to customers support requests  it's a NO GO for me.

 

A release of the software on other shops like Simmarket would be highly appreciated but I fear GIZMO would still be involved...

 

Kind regards

Martin

[tonywob 4,769]

Can we please stay on topic about the Saab 340. I can appreciate people are upset over this (It's the third topic about this already) and some people are very much vocal than others, but let's not turn this into a debate or flamewar over XA, Gizmo, etc.  

[hangar 661]

For the record so to speak,

 

...who customers are forced to entrust their private information to as part of a sales transaction, as well as their customer service needs as they come up afterwards, can certainly have an impact on the future sales of a product, as well as the reputation and trust in the product's author.

 

So, I'd say it IS on-topic (according to the title of the thread anyway, which is vague at best), just not "technical" in nature is all.

 

Regardless of some obvious biased opinions here...the evidence presented today which shows undeniable unprofessional behavior from the people who run that store should come as NO surprise and is really nothing new if you've been paying attention over the years.

 

My own personal disappointment is the author's refusal to setup any other available means in getting his products via what some buyers might consider to be more professionally run and trusted etailors.

[whoispankaj 51]

Ok guys..I have bought the airplane. I am hoping and expecting good customer service from xaviation... Looking forward to learn this airplane...I haven't had the time to look into the manuals yet.. But does anybody know if there are good instructions in the manual to configure the throttle and condition levers for this airplane.. Looking forward to look into the manuals this weekend

[GoranM 3,764]

 

Well Goran, I'm sorry to say that after seeing yet another example of plain rude and unprofessional behaviour from X-Aviation today, it's unlikely I'll be buying any more of your products while they are only offered through that website:

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/xenviro/permalink/677081655799565/

 

I find it absolutely absurd that any member of your organisation would think it appropriate to deny customers support for one of the products they had bought simply because they had a competitors' product installed. I've had clashes with Ben and Cameron in the past because of forum etiquette but this is another matter entirely.

 

A shame. I have a lot of respect for your work but just cannot support X-Aviation any more given their frequently appalling behaviour.

 

 

 

Then saying its russian "soft"ware , not sure what Ben meant by that comment, I hope not what I think what he meant....

 

 

The comments of Ben Russell on several forums also made me stop buying from X-Aviation. It's a highly rude and unprofessional attitude. Some guys at X-Aviation seem to be really pi##ed by the release of XEnviro and act like grumpy kids who get send to bed early (see the above link to the discussion on facebook). I still don't get the reason for it, as both products have their pros and cons. Just let the customer choose.

 

It's a real pitty because I would love to have the Saab in my hangar (as well as the upcomming Citation) but with this attitude to customers support requests  it's a NO GO for me.

 

A release of the software on other shops like Simmarket would be highly appreciated but I fear GIZMO would still be involved...

 

Kind regards

Martin

 

 

For the record so to speak,

 

...who customers are forced to entrust their private information to as part of a sales transaction, as well as their customer service needs as they come up afterwards, can certainly have an impact on the future sales of a product, as well as the reputation and trust in the product's author.

 

So, I'd say it IS on-topic (according to the title of the thread anyway, which is vague at best), just not "technical" in nature is all.

 

Regardless of some obvious biased opinions here...the evidence presented today which shows undeniable unprofessional behavior from the people who run that store should come as NO surprise and is really nothing new if you've been paying attention over the years.

 

My own personal disappointment is the author's refusal to setup any other available means in getting his products via what some buyers might consider to be more professionally run and trusted etailors.

 

Guys, I can appreciate the frustration you're feeling, but Jim and I are just developers who want to make aircraft add ons for X-Plane.  That's it.  We spend years on making just 1 add on.  So our dedication is evident.  We love what we do, and that's as far as we want to go when it comes to the inner workings at X-Aviation and the politics within the community.  I SOMETIMES look at negative posts at forums and pages when it's brought to my attention, but if I do, it can affect my work, so I would rather stay away from it all.  

I have been yelled at, sworn at, chastized in PM's through various forums and my Facebook page, several times, by disgruntled customers, who have been waiting a few extra days than normal for X-Aviation support.  I try to help when I can, but at the end of the day, I'm just a developer.  I'm not X-Aviation support.

Jim and I just make add ons.  We want to make add ons that people enjoy.  X-Aviation provides the tools we need.  If you want to punish us because of a possible negative experience you've had at X-Aviation, that we have nothing to do with, or because of something you've read on a facebook page from someone else, that's entirely your decision.  

We're not going anywhere, and should you change your mind about a purchase, you're always welcome.

[scotchegg 4,186]

Yeah, I can totally sympathise Goran having to frequently bear the brunt of others' miscommunications and it's a real pity this has any effect on your work / income / peace of mind. That's the bind for many users though, desperately want to support the product (because they deserve it, not through any sense of liking the devs), but just can't put up with the 'quirks' of the support guys.

 

Hopefully things will change / improve to a point where we can all just interact in a normal customer / vendor way...

[Paraffin 2,197]

Ben's statement over in the X-Aviation Gizmo support forum about XEnviro looks terrible out of context. But if you read that whole thread, it's clear that it doesn't mean they won't support any X-Aviation product if you're running XEnviro. It's just a badly worded snap post about the difficulty of debugging which plugins might be causing problems. Later in the thread this was made clear, and the OP managed to fix his problem.

 

My personal view of all this, is that X-Aviation sells some of the best add-ons for X-Plane, with a downside that their support crew is often more brusque and more publicly suspicious of their customers than necessary. But they're worth dealing with in the long run, if you want to use some of the great add-ons sold through their storefront. I've never had any trouble with my purchases, and I've received timely help with things like new passwords when I'm dumb and forget a login. But I know that's just one data point.

 

That said, if you're the type that often resets your computer configuration in ways that trigger a new activation -- i.e. a constant computer tweaker (and there's nothing wrong with that) -- then you might want to look elsewhere. Their particular method of DRM and follow-on support isn't a good match for that situation. If you're like me and only do something that requires a re-installation of an X-Aviation purchase maybe once a year, you probably won't have any trouble.

[gassa 36]

Goran, I must admit that your forum posts are always written in a normal, polite and customer friendly way. And for sure the behaviour of some of the developers at X-Aviation is not your fault. But as a publisher who sells his stuff over there....can you just tell the guys to sometimes calm down before posting (count slowly from 1 to 10, have a cold shower, whatever...)

 

Something like this is really bad marketing (and no, I am not the quoted user "donnergurke").

 

 

[Arwen 289]

Guys, I can appreciate the frustration you're feeling, but Jim and I are just developers who want to make aircraft add ons for X-Plane.  That's it.  We spend years on making just 1 add on.  So our dedication is evident.  We love what we do, and that's as far as we want to go when it comes to the inner workings at X-Aviation and the politics within the community.  I SOMETIMES look at negative posts at forums and pages when it's brought to my attention, but if I do, it can affect my work, so I would rather stay away from it all.  

I have been yelled at, sworn at, chastized in PM's through various forums and my Facebook page, several times, by disgruntled customers, who have been waiting a few extra days than normal for X-Aviation support.  I try to help when I can, but at the end of the day, I'm just a developer.  I'm not X-Aviation support.

Jim and I just make add ons.  We want to make add ons that people enjoy.  X-Aviation provides the tools we need.  If you want to punish us because of a possible negative experience you've had at X-Aviation, that we have nothing to do with, or because of something you've read on a facebook page from someone else, that's entirely your decision.  

We're not going anywhere, and should you change your mind about a purchase, you're always welcome.

 

I for one appreciate your work, based only on what I have seen in this thread.  The only reason why I haven't bought the XP 10 version is that I never really liked X-Plane 10 enough to purchase addons for it.  But X-Plane 11 has been a completely different experience for me (enough that it has already become my primary flightsim (and I also own P3D and DCS).

 

So far I've only bought small GA aircraft (for P3D), but I'm now ready to move up to larger aircraft, so I've been looking for a good regional turboprop for X-Plane. As soon as you complete your X-Plane 11 version of the Saab 320, I'll be purchasing it.

[GoranM 3,764]

Goran, I must admit that your forum posts are always written in a normal, polite and customer friendly way. And for sure the behaviour of some of the developers at X-Aviation is not your fault. But as a publisher who sells his stuff over there....can you just tell the guys to sometimes calm down before posting (count slowly from 1 to 10, have a cold shower, whatever...)

 

Something like this is really bad marketing (and no, I am not the quoted user "donnergurke").

 

 

Ben is actually a very nice guy, and I get along with him quite well.  His skill at programming is freaky, to say the least.

Ben rarely, if ever, censors himself.  If he feels it, he says it.  And it's a form of "respect" towards the other person.  I know it may not seem like it, but he doesn't like sugar coating things.  He is very up front and brutally honest with people.  

How he handles things is not how I would handle things.  But seeing what we have seen, behind the scenes, with all the politics, slanderous comments, etc made by other customers, publishers and developers, his patience cup gets full quite quickly.  I've seen people charge in with a complaint in the forums, demanding to be attended to, and to have the problem fixed asap.  We're not robots.  We're human beings.  Treat us respectfully, outline the problem, ask what is needed to help fix it, and proceed from there.  That facebook post was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.  "Delete all reference to Xenviro when asking for support".  THAT was moronic.  As was mentioned earlier, the entire forum thread at X-Pilot explained Ben's position.  

Something that has been piling up a bit, and it has affected me, also, is this.  I won't mention any names, but a well known developer has tried to discredit Ben and XA for YEARS, by blaming Gizmo for conflicts between SASL and Gizmo.  This developer did absolutely nothing to help fix it.  All attempts at contacting him went unanswered.  It was Ben and Cameron who had to buy an add on from this developer, and then contact Laminar and work directly with Ben Supnik to deconstruct SASL and come up with something to stop the conflicts, and then test a Gizmo add on and a SASL add on (the one they bought) to make sure the problem was resolved.  It was done, and this developer continued to blame Gizmo for crashes his add on was causing.  Years after the fact.  This was done because customers were blaming Gizmo for the conflict.  As far as they were concerned, it was Gizmo's fault.  

All this attacking can test a persons patience.

Anyway, I'm rambling.  

Just know there is a lot happening behind the scenes that many people don't know about.  And I do mean a lot.  This kind of stuff happens when billion dollar corporations try to stiff each other.  This shouldn't be happening in a flight sim community.  I try to stay away from it, because like I said, it can affect my work.  I've seen my own add ons get pirated many times.  Albeit, unsuccessfully, because the DRM is very robust.  

 

I for one appreciate your work, based only on what I have seen in this thread.  The only reason why I haven't bought the XP 10 version is that I never really liked X-Plane 10 enough to purchase addons for it.  But X-Plane 11 has been a completely different experience for me (enough that it has already become my primary flightsim (and I also own P3D and DCS).

 

So far I've only bought small GA aircraft (for P3D), but I'm now ready to move up to larger aircraft, so I've been looking for a good regional turboprop for X-Plane. As soon as you complete your X-Plane 11 version of the Saab 320, I'll be purchasing it.

No problem, Arwen. I'm sure you will enjoy it. Hopefully, it won't be long.

[LAdamson 240]

Goran, I must admit that your forum posts are always written in a normal, polite and customer friendly way. And for sure the behaviour of some of the developers at X-Aviation is not your fault. But as a publisher who sells his stuff over there....can you just tell the guys to sometimes calm down before posting (count slowly from 1 to 10, have a cold shower, whatever...)

 

Something like this is really bad marketing (and no, I am not the quoted user "donnergurke").

 

I knew many years ago, that the customer isn't always right. In fact, many times, they'll take total advantage if allowed. Yes, there are many of those ******** out there.

 

Note: I have no idea regarding the context of emails, texts, etc. that led to the replies. 

[CFIJose 5,485]

Goran, I must admit that your forum posts are always written in a normal, polite and customer friendly way. And for sure the behaviour of some of the developers at X-Aviation is not your fault. But as a publisher who sells his stuff over there....can you just tell the guys to sometimes calm down before posting (count slowly from 1 to 10, have a cold shower, whatever...)

 

Something like this is really bad marketing (and no, I am not the quoted user "donnergurke").

 

WOW! I've never seen anything like that posted by a developer.

That said, if you're the type that often resets your computer configuration in ways that trigger a new activation -- i.e. a constant computer tweaker (and there's nothing wrong with that) -- then you might want to look elsewhere. Their particular method of DRM and follow-on support isn't a good match for that situation. If you're like me and only do something that requires a re-installation of an X-Aviation purchase maybe once a year, you probably won't have any trouble.

 

I could not have written that any better.

[alpha12125 213]

 

Ben is actually a very nice guy, and I get along with him quite well.  His skill at programming is freaky, to say the least.

Ben rarely, if ever, censors himself.  If he feels it, he says it.  And it's a form of "respect" towards the other person.  I know it may not seem like it, but he doesn't like sugar coating things.  He is very up front and brutally honest with people.  

How he handles things is not how I would handle things.  But seeing what we have seen, behind the scenes, with all the politics, slanderous comments, etc made by other customers, publishers and developers, his patience cup gets full quite quickly.  I've seen people charge in with a complaint in the forums, demanding to be attended to, and to have the problem fixed asap.  We're not robots.  We're human beings.  Treat us respectfully, outline the problem, ask what is needed to help fix it, and proceed from there.  That facebook post was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.  "Delete all reference to Xenviro when asking for support".  THAT was moronic.  As was mentioned earlier, the entire forum thread at X-Pilot explained Ben's position.  

Something that has been piling up a bit, and it has affected me, also, is this.  I won't mention any names, but a well known developer has tried to discredit Ben and XA for YEARS, by blaming Gizmo for conflicts between SASL and Gizmo.  This developer did absolutely nothing to help fix it.  All attempts at contacting him went unanswered.  It was Ben and Cameron who had to buy an add on from this developer, and then contact Laminar and work directly with Ben Supnik to deconstruct SASL and come up with something to stop the conflicts, and then test a Gizmo add on and a SASL add on (the one they bought) to make sure the problem was resolved.  It was done, and this developer continued to blame Gizmo for crashes his add on was causing.  Years after the fact.  This was done because customers were blaming Gizmo for the conflict.  As far as they were concerned, it was Gizmo's fault.  

All this attacking can test a persons patience.

Anyway, I'm rambling.  

Just know there is a lot happening behind the scenes that many people don't know about.  And I do mean a lot.  This kind of stuff happens when billion dollar corporations try to stiff each other.  This shouldn't be happening in a flight sim community.  I try to stay away from it, because like I said, it can affect my work.  I've seen my own add ons get pirated many times.  Albeit, unsuccessfully, because the DRM is very robust.  

 The thing is the customer doesn't know about the things behind the scenes and 99% of the time he doesn't care about it.

 

Problem is that those things will haunt you and the sad part is that you as a developer will pay the bill in sales not happening. Even though out of context, that whole "we will not support you if you have x-enviro installed" debacle will be spread and spread and alienate people that think about buying it. It is not true and the following posts from Morten and Cameron in that regard are alot more supportive but the damage is done. It will get circulated true or not.   There was always friction in the whole .org / x-aviation story. But i feel it has gotten alot more violent in the last months, i mean the klaue sasl/gizmo drama was tame compared to that.

 

I just feel frustrated when i see the great work that you the ixeg / sundog team do in building bridges and offering usefull friendly posts only to see the bridges get burnt down by post like the above or facebook fights that you are not even involved.  I guess its all speculation on what the effect of this drama is, noone can tell if it really resulted in lost sales or not. But i feel if the road continues down like that nothing good is comming out of that.

[Murmur 3,941]

Since that FB post was related to IXEG, I just wanted to say, from what I know of two of their main developers (MortenM and Cpt. Janov), interacting with them on forums and PM, that they are two very correct and nice persons, full of love for the work they've done. Since the majority of the money you spend for an add-on goes to the developers (I suppose), in cases like this buying an add-on is worth it even if you don't like the publisher. And of course this is true also for other developers.

 

That being said, I can understand when people have bad experiences or concerns about support from a publisher and voice them in the forums.

 

(Sorry for the form, english is not my native language).