Approach Question

[hawkeye71 5]

Hi everyone. I'm a longtime user of RC and have a question about vectored approaches, which I use 99% of the time. Occasionally RC does not have me turn to intercept the localizer at the airport until I'm within 5 or 6 miles. By that time I'm way too high to capture the glideslope. Would this be a problem with the default FSX approaches, and if so, does anyone know if this can be changed with a program like Airport Design Editor? Thanks!

 

Patrick

[scottb613 1,188]

Hi Patrick,

 

Also long time user of RC - actually I can't fly an IFR flight without it...

 

5 to 6 does seem pretty close - any airports in particular ???

 

I usually have at least a 10 mile run on final course...

 

I've used ADE - and on the top right hand corner of the interface is the button to put it into "Approach Mode" - while I've looked several approaches I've never played enough to really know how to use it...

 

I've found I've had to adjust the MSA in RC before launching RC in the sim for some airports - one that comes to mind is San Diego as ATC will fly you into the ground... Understand you can use the NOTAM function with mountainous terrain but honestly I've never tried it...

 

Regards,

Scott

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

I've found I've had to adjust the MSA in RC before launching RC in the sim for some airports - one that comes to mind is San Diego as ATC will fly you into the ground... Understand you can use the NOTAM function with mountainous terrain but honestly I've never tried it...

It's not necessary to adjust MSA in RC4. If you are flying into an airport with mountainous terrain you should choose NOTAMS as that will clear you lower "if able". The vertical watchdog is turned off allowing you to descend only when safe.

 

As for the OP's question if would be helpful to know the airport where this happened. 6 miles out is far too close. 13nm is more realistic.

[hawkeye71 5]

I know this has happened at KMSN, at least on the approach to Runway 18. Definitely not a mountainous area there :wink:  

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

I know this has happened at KMSN, at least on the approach to Runway 18. Definitely not a mountainous area there :wink:  

 

Okay so we can discount a mountainous area.  A few questions...

 

Is Rwy 18 ILS equipped?

 

Was it a near-side or far-side approach?

 

Did you hear "Start down now, please. I need you level in thirty miles or less."? That should bring you down to either 11,000ft (near-side) or 12,000ft (far-side).

 

You should then be given further clearances down to around 4000ft, 13 miles out and crucially, below the glide-slope assuming it has one.

 

What type of aircraft are you? Prop, Turbo-prop, Jet or Heavy? The distance is dependent on type.Jet and Heavy should be 13 miles.

 

Finally, what do you have for deviations in Settings? Defaults are 15° heading; 300ft altitude and 10kts speed.

[hawkeye71 5]

Here is what I have:

 

1. Yes, Runway 18 is an ILS runway

 

2. I do get all the callouts from RC, including my final altitude (don't remember what it is right now) to capture the glideslope

 

3. I was flying a regional jet (don't recall which one at the moment)

 

4.My settings deviations are all set to the numbers you have above

 

I think maybe tomorrow I'll fly that route again tomorrow morning and see what happens this time, then I'll report back 

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

Thanks. Can't guarantee I can solve it but more info will be helpful.

[ronzie 21]

Regarding the use of NOTAMS for approach, it does not free you from the crossing restriction altitudes of 12,000 or 11,000 feet if issued.

 

RC does not use the approaches built into FSX/FS9 scenery unless the waypoints are in the flight plan sent to RC. Those approaches are used by FS AI and may be used in part by FS ATC. RC uses standard traffic patterns as outlined in the RC manual.

 

The MSA used in RC is an average of the quadrants surrounding the destination. On a VFR map these quadrants are shown with their MSAs declared in them.

 

Here is a standard ILS approach for KMSN using current charts:

 

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/MSN/IAP/ILS+OR+LOC_DME+RWY+18/pdf

 

Note the MSA 25 nm radius shown. RC's crossing restrictions fall about 40 nm out from the destination center just after which you are switched to approach.

 

Using the chart in conjunction with NOTAMS should give you an idea of  variance in altitude you can use.

 

If you are coming in from the north with the bearing limits you should be at initially 3,000 feet. Same for a downwind pattern taking you to a north base approach. You can descend inbound slowly getting to no less than 2,500 feet at  RUKII 5.2 nm out from touchdown, RUKIY being the final approach fix.

 

Here is a list of current charts:

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KMSN/procedures

 

Note that no STARS are published here.

 

Here is the sectional chart for KMSN and surrounding areas;

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KMSN/sectional

 

Note the blue MSA altitude shown within each quad expressed in hundreds of feet. The same numbers also appear in enroute low altitude IFR charts.

 

Note that KMSN falls within a terminal control area of a typical inverted wedding cake altitude restriction structure showing altitude windows radiating out from the airport.

 

It is very roughly 200 nm from KORD (Chicago) so little coordinating in low altitudes would be taking place.

[hawkeye71 5]

Well I flew the same route and approach this morning from KMSP to KMSN and RC had me make my final turn at 15 miles out and at an altitude of 2300 feet and it worked perfectly. Good thing, because visibility was down to half a mile! This was in the Feelthere ERJ170. I believe I may have had the problem previously with the Aerosoft A319. I'll try flying the route with the 319, probably tomorrow morning, and see what happens. Thanks everyone for your help!

 

Patrick 

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

Thanks for the feedback Patrick.

[ronzie 21]

One tip:

 

If you are flying a smaller aircraft and need a shorter downwind In one of the menus you can request that. Don't recall at this time.

[hawkeye71 5]

OK, will look for that. Flew the same route in the 319 and this time was instructed to make my final turn when I was 12 miles out, so that is more than manageable Going to fly the ILS to Runway 18 today and see what happens.

[ronzie 21]

You probably know that delaying any acknowledgments stalls RC ATC so be sure you ack within a reasonable time. Stalling can prevent a waypoint crossing credit to RC getting timing out of whack.

 

If you use a navigation system and a flight planner that can be updated with AIRAC data you can use the data and request an IAP when approach contacts you. RC will let you navigate on your own and only notify you if you are not on the path to the runway at about the FAF to contact tower. You load the plan into RC and then the approach into your navigation system after you know which runway RC assigns.

 

A single AIRAC update costs around $10 from Aerosoft or Navigraph and that payment allow you to download as many formats as you require.

 

Here is a link to some notes I made:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/owuz7p2ohx7y7st/fsb%20tips%20and%20update.pdf?dl=0

 

By doing your own final navigation using this methods the approach waypoints will appear on your EHSI giving you situational awareness. You can then extend your downwind turn to base if appropriate. Vectors will not be issued.

 

I had a problem similar to yours in going from KBOS into Martha's Vineyard with a small aircraft due to the proximity of the landing pattern to the takeoff point.

[hawkeye71 5]

I actually do have a Navigraph subscription and keep it updated every month. When wanting to fly an IAP approach, how do I get RC to stop nagging at me that I am busting my altitude?

 

Also, I do my flight planning with PFPX.

[ronzie 21]

I do not use PFPX so have no suggestions.

 

If you requested an IAP option after being contacted by approach they should not be monitoring your altitude until you are on final. You can also use NOTAMS to force advisory conditions. The IAP option only covers about 35 miles from destination in that is an approach function.