XP11 beta, full throttle down runway in GA single prop immediate left hard turning? Realistic?

[jcomm 5,928]

For an unbrake  idling C172 I don't think IRL such a drift would take place.

 

Are you really sure there was no wind layer set at ground level (*) ?

 

The last time I tested X-Plane 11 betas it was still buggy regarding that overdone weathervane effect, but Austin is working on it so we should probably wait for XP11.0 / XP11.1 ?

 

 

(*) - actually should be the reported wind at 30 feet / 10 m and not at ground level, but the only simulators that take that into consideration are DCS and ELITE so far and in some way also AEFS2 which reduces the wind component from 10m down to ground...

[Murmur 3,941]

(*) - actually should be the reported wind at 30 feet / 10 m and not at ground level, but the only simulators that take that into consideration are DCS and ELITE so far and in some way also AEFS2 which reduces the wind component from 10m down to ground...

 

I wonder if this plays a role in the weathervaning.

 

So, if the reported wind is at 10m above ground, and considering the worst case of a 0.27 exponent for wind gradient (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient#Wind_turbines , "Unstable air above human inhabited areas"), this means that when e.g. a 30 kts wind is reported, the vertical stabilizer of a C172 (say, 1.8 m above ground) is actually exposed to about 18-19 kts, not 30kts.

 

Even if that plays a role, I think the weathervaning stability of X-Plane aircrafts is still greater than it should be. But the lack of a wind gradient could exacerbate things.

[Janov 2,383]

Just put out the "atmosphere" to the screen using DATA OUTPUT. Its THAT simple. You will instantly see what kind of weather is acting upon the aircraft, no need to guess around wind gradients and such (which are not present in X-plane, btw).

 

Jan

[Murmur 3,941]

Just put out the "atmosphere" to the screen using DATA OUTPUT. Its THAT simple. You will instantly see what kind of weather is acting upon the aircraft, no need to guess around wind gradients and such (which are not present in X-plane, btw).

 

Jan

 

My point was just the opposite. :smile: When in real life a pilot is taking off with a 30kts reported crosswind (at 10m above ground), the actual wind hitting the aircraft/vertical stabilizer should be significantly less (less than 20kts?); on the other hand, setting a 30kts crosswind in X-Plane, will produce 30kts even at ground level.

[jcomm 5,928]

My point was just the opposite. :smile: When in real life a pilot is taking off with a 30kts reported crosswind (at 10m above ground), the actual wind hitting the aircraft/vertical stabilizer should be significantly less (less than 20kts?); on the other hand, setting a 30kts crosswind in X-Plane, will produce 30kts even at ground level.

 

Exactly my point.

 

Although, as we know, there is still something wrong anyway.... and Austin mentioned he's at it on one of his recent PMs...

 

At least Murmur has been able to somehow isolate the most probable location of the origin of this old problem - not sideways friction but rather weathervane factor.

[theskyisthelimit 48]

For an unbrake  idling C172 I don't think IRL such a drift would take place.

 

Are you really sure there was no wind layer set at ground level (*) ?

 

The last time I tested X-Plane 11 betas it was still buggy regarding that overdone weathervane effect, but Austin is working on it so we should probably wait for XP11.0 / XP11.1 ?

 

 

(*) - actually should be the reported wind at 30 feet / 10 m and not at ground level, but the only simulators that take that into consideration are DCS and ELITE so far and in some way also AEFS2 which reduces the wind component from 10m down to ground...

 

I thought so too on the idling and drifting left (unless the runway was sloped left?)..

In the video and tests.. winds are Zero.. so its not a weathervaning due to winds issue here.

 

Asking questions related to this in other places, from real world GA pilots, I'm getting both sides to this.. the large percentage seem to say that in real life this pull to the left to the point of circling (at 25-30% throttle mind you, very low! The title on this thread should be renamed.. it wasnt full throttle)... is not accurate and overdone..  while a few still say it might be true.. but i guess it all depends on the plane..  Trying to keep it all even here and talk the c172 if possible.. but with winds zero and all things held equal i still go to the holding pattern that the Pfactor is overdone.

 

**does a youtube video exist of a real c172, where there is no wind, on the runway, moving down the runway and no rudders to see actual movement to the left.. this would be very useful if anyone knows of one?

 

This also leads to another side question.. i'm using ch pedals after all these years.. they lack the resistance (i think?) that real pedals have.. so pushing right rudder on take off often feels wishy washy and the plane will oscillate left and right till you find the right spot (people continue to say that flying a real c172 in real life, rolling along, is not as hard as it is in the sim)..  

 

Is there a different brand pedal that gives more of a real sensation of pressure when pushing left and right.. without costing an arm and a leg?

[Paraffin 2,197]

Is there a different brand pedal that gives more of a real sensation of pressure when pushing left and right.. without costing an arm and a leg?

 

The Saitek Pro Flight Combat pedals I use have an adjustable damper so you can set how firm the resistance is. I have it set for a little more resistance than the CH pedals I used before (not too firm, or it starts to be a problem for helicopter tail rotor control).

 

They're well-made, a bit more expensive than the CH pedals but less than top-tier simulator pedals. I also like the way the pedals are further apart than the CH model, and they can be used as a push-bar which fits my large foot size better. 

[Mountain Man 142]

 

 

This also leads to another side question.. i'm using ch pedals after all these years.. they lack the resistance (i think?) that real pedals have.. so pushing right rudder on take off often feels wishy washy and the plane will oscillate left and right till you find the right spot (people continue to say that flying a real c172 in real life, rolling along, is not as hard as it is in the sim)..

Is there a different brand pedal that gives more of a real sensation of pressure when pushing left and right.. without costing an arm and a leg?

 

I have the CH Products Eclipse Yoke which has rudder paddles built into the yoke itself, and these can be very touchy because the throw is so short.  I found that increasing X-Plane's yaw stability to maximum in the joystick settings does settle things down quite a lot, and following the tips in this thread, I've had much better success keeping on the center line during takeoff.  Not perfect, but better.

 

I think one of the problems with this discussion is that what feels "realistic" is such a subjective thing.

[theskyisthelimit 48]

The Saitek Pro Flight Combat pedals I use have an adjustable damper so you can set how firm the resistance is. I have it set for a little more resistance than the CH pedals I used before (not too firm, or it starts to be a problem for helicopter tail rotor control).

 

They're well-made, a bit more expensive than the CH pedals but less than top-tier simulator pedals. I also like the way the pedals are further apart than the CH model, and they can be used as a push-bar which fits my large foot size better. 

 

Thanks for the suggestion on pedals.. looks like they are harder to find.. 

 

IAre these the same, but maybe newer.. the logitech (i guess they are really saitek pros)

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Saitek-Flight-Rudder-Pedals/dp/B01LYPMTPT/ref=pd_lpo_147_tr_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EZ5R7Y8V4XC6AY8D2N8T

[LAdamson 240]

 

 

This also leads to another side question.. i'm using ch pedals after all these years.. they lack the resistance (i think?) that real pedals have.. so pushing right rudder on take off often feels wishy washy and the plane will oscillate left and right till you find the right spot (people continue to say that flying a real c172 in real life, rolling along, is not as hard as it is in the sim)..  
 

 

The "feel" of constant right rudder pedal, can be accomplished with in the sim. Or at least should be. All sensations are from what we see on the screen, in addition to any resistance on the controls. If the plane wanders, with constant pressure, as some do...............then the model can use some more programming. I do use Saitek pedals which have the resistance adjustment. I keep them fairly light. 

 

 

I think one of the problems with this discussion is that what feels "realistic" is such a subjective thing.

 

Yes, but as been noted before, numerous times.................if we've actually piloted these aircraft, the brain will fill in a lot of gaps.  

[Humpty 751]

I fly the Dora , some  right aileron some right rudder else torque gets ya once you lift off , and rudder to her centered watch the runway

[Paraffin 2,197]

Thanks for the suggestion on pedals.. looks like they are harder to find.. 

 

IAre these the same, but maybe newer.. the logitech (i guess they are really saitek pros)

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Saitek-Flight-Rudder-Pedals/dp/B01LYPMTPT/ref=pd_lpo_147_tr_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EZ5R7Y8V4XC6AY8D2N8T

 

They might be discontinued since Logitech bought the company? Maybe you can find some still in stock somewhere.

 

It looks like the ones you linked probably have the same basic mechanism, but they're more of a "put your foot inside the pedal" design, which I don't like as much as the push-bar and heel slide design of the Combat pedals. I don't know why more companies aren't making affordable pedals with this design. Here's what they look like:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Saitek-Flight-Combat-Rudder-Pedals/dp/B004ING996

 

Of course if you really want to spend some bucks you can get something like these:

 

https://flypfc.com/product-category/rudder-pedals/

[theskyisthelimit 48]

This might be the closest example of real world 172 left turning tendancy/effects/rudder movement i can find so far.. 

 

[Mountain Man 142]

This might be the closest example of real world 172 left turning tendancy/effects/rudder movement i can find so far.. 

 

 

That video even uses movies recorded in X-Plane to illustrate some of its points!  For example, the night landing starting around 1:47.

[LAdamson 240]

This might be the closest example of real world 172 left turning tendancy/effects/rudder movement i can find so far.. 

 

snipped

I just had to appreciate the comment about no aileron unless there is a crosswind.  :smile: