Passenger Weights

[KORDATC 80]

Just wondering what the passenger weights are in the new QOTS II?  It seems to be 195lbs, but for some reason, my ZFW keeps ending up about 10,000lbs off of what is calculated in PFPX even though I went ahead and created a new profile for her with the correct weights.  I set the passenger weight in PFPX to 195lbs as well.  It wasn't a big deal as I just adjusted the cargo until it matched up with the ZFW on the fp.

 

Excellent Aircraft!

 

Cheers,

Rob

 

[pcubine 143]

It wasn't a big deal as I just adjusted the cargo until it matched up with the ZFW on the fp.

You have the right idea there. I don't know what the passengers are supposed to weight. For PFPX I only enter a weight in the payload box which includes both passengers and cargo.

[PlainandSimplePaints 45]

I just take the ZFW PFPX spits out and put that straight in and let PMDG figure out the passengers and cargo.

[Copper. 78]

I just take the ZFW PFPX spits out and put that straight in and let PMDG figure out the passengers and cargo.

 

+1. Don't bother doing anything else, real pilots haven't much control over what goes where. There are rules that make other people do this for you. You just check to make sure distribution looks good, and liase with ops and/or others if it's not.

[ST1322 10]

Ditto. ZFW (and rest) from load sheet obtained from dispatch.

[Chock 17,769]

Average passenger weight, according to the FAA, is 195lbs; they revised it in 2004 following the crash of Air Midwest Flight 5418 in 2003, which was a Beech 1900.

 

Flight 5418 was using the previous older FAA average weight calculation of 175lbs per passenger (a calculation which originated in the 1930s, and to be honest, these days even 195lbs is quite conservative). The NTSB investigation into that accident also revealed that on average, each single bag carried onto a plane was being underestimated in weight by 5lbs, which might not seem a lot, but if you think how many bags get crammed onto a 747, that's a lot of weight to be underestimating.

 

As a result of the crash of their aircraft, Air Midwest subsequently used an average of 200lbs per passenger, which actually meant they couldn't put a full passenger load on their Beech 1900s any more, but it did mean they didn't have another terrible crash like the one which led to them making that change.

[killairbus 3]

You could just load up with only passengers and divide the payload (ZFW-OEW) by the number of passengers on board.

 

-Angelo Busato

[netshadoe 144]

PFPX has a bug with pax weight.  Adult weight can’t be higher than 83kg...what ever that is in lbs...185ish.

The problem is documented and acknowledged on their forum...but no fix coming anytime soon unfortunately.  Updates are like molasses over there.

[downscc 1,327]

13 hours ago, killairbus said:

You could just load up with only passengers and divide the payload (ZFW-OEW) by the number of passengers on board.

 

-Angelo Busato

Why did this old thread get resurrected?  You can assume that the original poster to a 20 month old post has long forgotten about their post.

[killairbus 3]

10 hours ago, downscc said:

Why did this old thread get resurrected?  You can assume that the original poster to a 20 month old post has long forgotten about their post.

I assumed that but given it's an assumption it means I can assume the opposite as well so I thought I could help out, I what's the harm done? 

-Angelo Busato

[berts 97]

On 2/1/2017 at 11:05 AM, Copper. said:

 

......., real pilots haven't much control over what goes where. There are rules that make other people do this for you. You just check to make sure distribution looks good, and liase with ops and/or others if it's not.

Oh yes they do, Brian; especially when it involves things like dangerous goods and freight distribution etc. 

The Captain of the aircraft has legal responsibility for the safety of the flight from the time the first person boards with the intention of flight until the last person disembarks.  I agree with you that for large aircraft like the B744 the task of checking the loading of the aircraft is normally delegated to trained personnel, such as the despatcher.  However, the Captain is the person that must sign the Loadsheet having checked for themself that the passengers, cargo and fuel are all loaded and distributed correctly for the flight.  This is definitely something that most professional pilots I know take very seriously. 

[MarkJHarris 128]

Yes it is. However, one of the reasons we're paid a reasonable salary is we sign for these things without ever being able to check what's written is actually on the aircraft.

On walkaround, I take a look at the holds, so an empty one will arouse my suspicion. I check the cabin crew bags and also make sure I'm listening when the passenger numbers are called out by the SCCM after doors closed. It's really all you can do.

However, one day a long time ago, I was listening to this figure having seen an Under 11 athletics team board. The loadsheet was handed to me and it was a bit forward using the bay distribution method and average weight as normal. (Q400, long and thin).....

I looked over the dispatcher's shoulder to the sea of matching T shirts at the back of the plane and alarm bells went off in my head. He was utterly clueless to my warnings. No idea. I showed him the bay split, what would happen if we accounted for all the adults at the front and skinny kids at the back and when my manual loadsheet had us well outside the front of the envelope, he still was none the wiser. So I kicked him off and shut the doors, then PA'd to the passengers and got all the parents to swap seats with the kids to balance us up. The Take off trim was always in a central position so I simply couldn't do this on a 737 remember.

But it does show that common sense, airmanship and a strong survival instinct is not universal in real aviation! Think I earned my pay that day. My suggestion of all teams being seated in the middle by default was ignored too....... 

[Copper. 78]

On 9/8/2018 at 8:21 AM, berts said:

This is definitely something that most professional pilots I know take very seriously. 

Where in what I wrote did I imply that weight and balance wasn’t taken seriously?

All else that you’ve written is covered in my statement in simplified form. I didn’t want to proffer a long winded explanation and still don’t.

Fact is - a dept does a job, they certify it has been accomplished correctly... then you check it <insert reason here>. There is nothing sophisticated about this 3 step process, yet, somehow you’ve managed to spend a paragraph making it so.

 

Mark - that has actually happened at my outfit and it went undetected, though I’m sure still within the envelope albeit, a bit mis configured re trim etc. Fortunately, no significant complications except unusual handling and degraded segment performance.

There was an error at step 2 as described above - children logged as adults.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Copper.

[berts 97]

Keep your shirt on, because I was not implying you didn't take weight and balance seriously,  I was simply replying to your statement "real pilots haven't much control over what goes where. There are rules that make other people do this for you."

At the end of the day the Captain is ultimately responsible for the correct loading of his aircraft and those are the only rules that really count; especially when the loading of the aircraft goes wrong as Mark has already described.  I agree that these tasks are often delegated, but in the interests of safety it is vitally important that every pilot in command carefully checks the loadsheet before signing it and if there is any doubt about the correct loading of the aircraft it is investigated before departure.  It is much too late to do anything about it once you get airborne and suddenly discover you can't control the aircraft.     

[Copper. 78]

3 hours ago, berts said:

At the end of the day the Captain is ultimately responsible for the correct loading of his aircraft and those are the only rules that really count;

Well, no, the contrary is set in precedence.

It is no fault of the pic if the airplane is loaded different to documentation and so culpability is much with party or parties other than the pic assuming wb was good on paper when accepted - especially in the case provided by Mark.

3 hours ago, berts said:

real pilots haven't much control over what goes where. There are rules that make other people do this for you

There is no issue with this statement. I see it operationally day in day out in normal operations that include 747.

Pic still has no control here. The controls are defined in approved procedures and rules, if pic or delegate feels so inclined to rectify on the spot according to these, then kudos to them.

Ordinarily, others rectify the problem after crew detect it, then reissue a new load sheet to proffer to crew. Which pic then re-checks then accepts or rejects.

It ain’t rocket science, nor is culpability 100% on the pic in ALL cases.