Adamski_NZ

Generic PTA testing scenario - suggestions please!

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Hi Mike

 

1. sorry missed that bit , don't have Rex

2. yes

3. EZdoc v2

4. now altered from 1300 hrs t0 0700 hrs

5 yes

6. yes

 

new shot as requested with file type.

 

bob

 

3G1Iisu.png

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Well, its morning here and Im still waking up so let me just say thanks, Mike, for conducting the experiment and Im sorry I put you on a wild goose chase but its good to know that's not an issue.

 

I'll continue following the thread as I love a mystery. Good luck, guys.

 

P.S.: the HDR Day Exposure value in the config can greatly alter the scenes appearance. I used it in an earlier 3.x version - not sure which one now - to make the sky more alive. Those values are default. day exposure has been and should still be .28.

 

also - note that all three of you have different colored tarmac and runway in your Nelson shots. But , in Bobs case, that could be due to the sky texture used.

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It's starting to get harder to compare images on different web pages. So, I thought it would be helpful to repost our 3 'default' images to allow easier comparison.

 

First, Adam's image from Scenario 02

Bi4HNpj.jpg

 

Mine

V0laZj5.jpg

 

Bob's

8BdaNyM.jpg

 

Concerning the differences in Tarmac/Rwy: in my case this is almost certainly from REX-Worldwide Airports HD (My Ground Environments selection). I don't think it matters other than, perhaps, as an aesthetic distraction :smile:

 

Well, I'm not sure that this get's us any closer to an explanation as Bob's appears to me to lie somewhere between Adam's and Mine. The thick plottens! Seeing more sky in Bob's - would this have an influence? Also, he is not using REX Sky textures which, unfortunately, is likely to be an issue. If we are striving for meaningful results we do need to be on the same page with respect to Sky textures. Perhaps one of Gennadiy's compilations would be an appropriate choice for these tests?

 

Mike

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Just to add to the ingredients in the recipe my iiyama monitor has some presetts built in, Standard, scenery, cinema and game. it was set on scenery for this test shot.

There were slight differences on the lightness to dark and the game preset being more vivid.

 

Just to note I set my ShadersHLSL file back to default.

 

bob

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Hi Adam,

 

Don't hold your breath, but I think I may have made some progress!

 

It looks like the ColorMunki Calibration LUT loader didn't do its job properly first time around. I decided to try the recently created ROG PG278Q_Easy_D65_201702101603.icm colour calibration profile again today. When the system rebooted I thought I had done something wrong as the desktop image appeared very little different to what it had been before. Everything was checked again and verified and the system rebooted twice again and each time with the same result!

 

I reinstalled the REX4 TD Sky Textures, ran P3D, loaded the Test Scenario 02 and captured another image.

 

In each case the HDR settings remained unchanged (Brightness 0.70, Bloom 0.20, Saturation 0.85)

 

Judge the result for yourselves.....

 

Adam's (pta_generic_test_02_adam) image

Bi4HNpj.jpg

 

My image following initial monitor colour recalibration - ROG PG278Q_Easy_D65_201702101603.icm set as default

B0N8xLF.jpg

 

My image using the original ASUS PG278Q Color Profile, D6500 set as default

V0laZj5.jpg

 

Now, while my image following recalibration still does not match Adam's, it is getting closer and is certainly an improvement on my precalibration image. Of the two, Adam's is the warmer image but which, I wonder, is providing the most natural look? Tough call!

 

So, after all, I would suggest that this confirms monitor calibration to be one important variable in what is, quite evidently, a complex equation in our search for optimal imagery as displayed by Prepar3D following enhancements provided by PTA. Also, while its importance cannot be overestimated I think we can say with confidence that this is only one of many variables contributing potentially to any differences observed on our displays.

 

Regards,

Mike


 

 


Just to note I set my ShadersHLSL file back to default.

 

Hi Bob,

 

Again, just to clarify, after 'Restoring the original P3D shaders' (or did you mean 'Set initial parameters for all tweaks'?) did you 'Open' and 'Apply' Adam's 20_10 Preset?

 

Regards,

Mike

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Again, just to clarify, after 'Restoring the original P3D shaders' (or did you mean 'Set initial parameters for all tweaks'?) did you 'Open' and 'Apply' Adam's 20_10 Preset?

Hi Mike, Before deleting all my PTA folders ( had a few) I reinstall thro pta my original files, however I decided to make sure by reinstating my ShadersHLSL folder from a back-up before reinstalling PTA 2.10 and then applied Adams preset 20_10

 

I was thinking what should we be expecting at around 0700 hrs in NZ and perhaps later on in the day.

I've just been looking at the changes you get by simply having NCP up and just sliding the brightness and contrast slider bars over.

 

bob

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I was thinking what should we be expecting at around 0700 hrs in NZ and perhaps later on in the day.

 

 

Hi Bob,

 

Quite simply, changes in shadow length and hence overall appearance and lighting of the scene.

 

Regards,

Mike

 

 

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Mike - I'm intrigued. The plot thickens! I'd have thought changing your monitor profile/settings shouldn't have made any difference to the saved image (!!!). Arrrrgh! You are just using the default P3D "V" key and not some other method?

 

I've posted instructions on these benchmarking scenarios on my PTA page (as well as revising the instructions in the archives): http://www.nzfsim.org/index.php?dsp=PTA&scenarios=1#scenarios

 

Also, I uploaded an archive with my main P3D settings (for benchmarking purposes): http://www.nzfsim.org/index.php?dsp=dload&fname=Adam_P3D_settings_PTA.zip

 

@Bob - many thanks. Without closer inspection, your pic looks damn' close to mine :)

 

Adam.

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Mike - I'd have thought changing your monitor profile/settings shouldn't have made any difference to the saved image (!!!). Arrrrgh! You are just using the default P3D "V" key and not some other method?

 

Hi Adam,

 

I share your confusion yet, there it is. Some changes have occurred to my captured image following recalibration and are being observed on my monitor and iPad thus implying a positive effect. I'm assuming you are seeing it as well.

 

Yes, I am using the "V" key.

 

I'm pretty sure that the setup prior to image capture remains exactly the same, but will check again carefully to confirm that is indeed the case.

 

We talk about monitor recalibration whereas, in fact, it's the calibration curves of a monitor profile, as generated by the video LUTs of our graphics cards, that are being modified. The monitor has to be reset to its default settings prior to formal recalibration. Perhaps somewhere therein lies the answer to this puzzle. I need to check that Windows7 is handling this properly.

 

Regards,

Mike

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Mike - an easy way to test this would be to make a seriously stupid/out of range change in the profile and see how it affects P3D and corresponding screengrab - providing, of course, you keep a backup copy of your *real* profile LOL!

 

Just to check we're on the same page, as it were ... you're talking about the Control Panel where you assign different profiles <?>. I have an sRGB one selected at the moment. I don't think I have a way of editing these profiles - I suppose your calibration software does all that <?>.

 

Adam.

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Hi Adam,

'Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice or, in this instance, Mike :fool:

Seems I was right about Windows7. I found the following: "Windows7 is the first version of Windows that can load the calibration curves of a monitor profile to the video LUTs without needing to restart the computer. However, Windows 7 is not set up by default to do it."

However, that doesn't explain why the new calibration profile did not load after rebooting with the ColorMunki Calibration Loader running at system startup. Clearly I was wrong in believing it had. Nor does it explain the difference in appearance of my image in post #50 when compared to previous images.

Anyway, I looked into this a bit further and found the following:

Use Windows display calibration was unchecked and greyed out
ORg4OSw.jpg

Use Windows display calibration checked under Color Management - System Defaults
zvZiQQF.jpg

Result
1LjrWR9.jpg

Now I have control and can switch back and forth between ICC Profiles without having to reboot.

The first thing that became apparent was the return of the dark image as soon as I switched to the recently created ColorMunki display calibration profile ROG PG278Q_Easy_D65_201702101603.icm. I took a snap with my iPad:
rM2Gpzc.jpg

I captured another image from P3D in the usual way by using the "V" key and, of course, it appeared very dark as well.
Then I switched to the ASUS PG278Q Color Profile, D6500 and everything brightened up again, including the iPad image, except the latter, as expected, remained darker than the rest.

As you surmised, Adam, what colour information is saved in any particular image and how it is displayed on a monitor are two different things. The former is fixed and determined by the Application software, in this case Prepar3D, whereas the latter can and does influence how each image is displayed and will be influenced by the monitor's active colour calibration profile. The more accurate the calibration curves of a monitor profile are, as generated by the video LUTs of our graphics cards, then the closer will be the displayed image to the original as produced by Prepar3D.

Regards,
Mike

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@Bob - many thanks. Without closer inspection, your pic looks damn' close to mine :)

Hi Adam,

 

Now, that is interesting because I don't see it that way. To me Bob's appears closer to mine and lighter in appearance. Both our images look on the cold side - yours has a much warmer feel. I've viewed each image on my monitor and iPad and I have the same impression. That said, of the three, I still prefer your image so I wouldn't alter what you are doing. What's more your Presets are producing really great results on my setup, despite some posted images suggesting otherwise, so, purely from a selfish standpoint, I would really hate that to change!

 

I fear our attempts to explain these differences will continue to be frustrated. Perhaps there isn't an answer. As you have suggested in an earlier post, Adam, I think we can rule out Monitor Calibration or the lack thereof. Yes, it will improve the accuracy of colour balance and consequently will affect the way any image is displayed. However, if image 'A' and 'B' appear differently at the outset no amount of monitor recalibration will cause them to match as any shifts will affect each image to the same degree. I think I have confirmed that to be true. Doubtless there are some readers who will be itching to tell us that probably should have been self evident and I was tilting at windmills all along..LOL! Still, I've learned a few things along the way and that is never bad.

 

It now seems clear that the answer does lie elsewhere. Presumably that has to be the origin of the created image: Prepar3D

 

Adjusting HDR values can help, but does have undesirable side-effects, so that's not the way to go. So what is it about our Setups that is different and could possibly be responsible for producing these variances? The mystery deepens ever further!

 

Regards,

Mike

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Mike - I agree with your last post. I wonder if we've come to the end of the road in our quest!

 

@felipe ... not sure if I understand your question ... do you mean "what is the solution"?

 

Adam.

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Mike - I agree with your last post. I wonder if we've come to the end of the road in our quest!

Yes, thinking can be exhausting and I guess, for the moment, I'm all thunked out..lol! Maybe someday the answer will suddenly appear as our subconscious ruminations continue to churn over the problem...who knows. Or perhaps, amongst our readership, there is one kind and sympathetic soul with a brain the size of a planet who may feel impelled to reveal at least one mystery of our P3D universe 🤓

 

Could it be that the answer is, indeed, 42?

 

Regards,

Mike

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