JustFlight PA-28R Arrow released

[Gregg_Seipp 565]

32 minutes ago, JYW said:

I'm not sure I've made any with just the one (170lb) pilot though, so perhaps the "jumping off the runway" is taking place when weights are above just the PIC.

In the RW Warrior/Archer (the only airplane that I can compare) it always felt the same to me whether loaded or not, though I'm sure it climbed faster lighter.  I have to say the video looked nice and brought back a ton of memories.  Nose attitude looked right throughout the flight.  I think I took off at neutral trim, taking off was easy-peasy...maybe holding a little yoke back...a fair amount of right pedal.  Landing, it typically floated when it got down to ground effect, bleeding off speed with the nose on the end of the runway until it dropped.  Here's an Arrow 200 vid I found (there are a lot more!  Pretty typically how I flew the Warrior but with different speeds, of course...notice the float on the first landing.  100 on downwind, 90 base, 80 final (10 knots slower with the Archer).  Unfortunately, yeah, you don't ever get to see the trimming, though you do, sometimes hear the flap handle click.  It's pretty hard to mess up a landing in one of these, though I almost managed it once coming in fast and floating over so much perfectly usable runway...LOL.

 

[tttocs 301]

2 hours ago, JYW said:

FDE - Fuel flow

1. Fuel flow seems very high.  Around 20gph at 20MP, 2300RPM at 4500' (1013mb) with mixture at around 70%.

Ah, yes.  Meant to mention that as well.  I was a bit taken aback when I went to make my first fuel tank switch and noted the left tank was already reading about half.  Don't know how long I'd been in the air as I was mostly up getting a feel for things, but it wasn't half a tank long.

Again, however, let me say thanks to the developers for actively participating here.  I'll take a look at the vid later today after I get a few more takeoffs at different weights/balances/trim settings  for comparison.

 

Scott

[RobdeVries 28]

3 hours ago, Delta558 said:

There's obviously something amiss, but I want to get it fixed so if you'd care to look at the vid (it's only about 5 mins) and give me an idea how far off that your experience is (plus anything else you feel is relevant) I'd be grateful!

Cheers,
Paul.

Hello Paul,

I notice a difference and something simular

1. difference: you see, to have more control over pitch. But I don't see you handling the trim wheel and/or yoke.
2. simularity: flaps down, pitching down. That's odd. Never experienced it in real aircraft. More often an upward pitch which you seem to have to control.
3. simularity: the yank on the yoke to get off the rwy. don't know if the Arrow does have that tendeny in real life. But most small GA planes I exerienced seem to fly itself off the rwy.

What I however like is the ballooning effect before flaring. seem to float forever :).

What I again saw after taking off with either neutral trim or (ever so) slight up trim is, that the AC really seem to increasingly pitch up till it almost stands on it's tail and even wants to make a loop. It's only because ultimately the stall is preventing the pitching/looping tendency.
In general the AC seems very unstable in cruise, you have to handle the yoke and trim almost constantly to fly in a straight line.

Hope this helps,

Rob

[Gregg_Seipp 565]

21 minutes ago, Holland_Holland said:

2. simularity: flaps down, pitching down. That's odd. Never experienced it in real aircraft. More often an upward pitch which you seem to have to control.

I always saw a bloom up which you have to control and then a pitching down as the speed came down which gave you more visibility over the cowl...really apparent in Cessnas.  The one thing about simming is you don't feel the deceleration when that happens. 

[Delta558 50]

Thank you all very much for the comments so far - I'm currently making very fine adjustments to the empty CG and may 'fudge' the positions of the rear passengers / load compartment slightly. They seem to have an overly strong effect, but then it is known that lateral imbalance is exaggerated so I supose why not pitch as well? I certainly wouldn't expect the addition of 200lb cargo to have the effect it does! 

 

To address directly a couple of the points made:

 

Scott - Fuel flow adjusted to point at mid 'cruise' on the FF gauge at 25/2400. Caught that one too late for inclusion.

 

Rob - 1) I didn't touch the trim throughout except for slight adjustment with gear and flap changes.  I was overly harsh with the yoke on take off to try and provoke pitching, but then once I had the angle of climb I let go and didn't touch it again until past 200ft agl.

 

2) the pitching with flap is odd - it's set to virtually zero in the files but seems exaggerated for the amount it's set to. However, the PNs state: "The airplane will experience a pitch change during flap extension or retraction.This pitch change can be corrected by either stabilator trim or increased controlwheel force." I think that the balance is correct there - it can be held by slight adjustment of the yoke or it can be trimmed if you want. The nose-down effect I believe comes more from the reduced airspeed because they do tend to act as airbrakes (confirmed by our Arrow pilot, a very similar effect to what I remember from flying the Rallye - full flap was like chucking an anchor out, I know what you mean there Gregg!). Also, note the lift element is minimal - only a 5kt difference between clean and full flap stall speed.

 

Good stuff so far, I'm hopeful of getting this sorted fairly quickly. The bad news - I'm away from the computer for about 48hrs with real life stuff, but I'll get onto it as soon as I'm back.

Cheers,

Paul.

[JYW 2,977]

Great to hear, thanks Paul.

[Gregg_Seipp 565]

5 minutes ago, Delta558 said:

the pitching with flap is odd - it's set to virtually zero in the files but seems exaggerated for the amount it's set to. However, the PNs state: "The airplane will experience a pitch change during flap extension or retraction.This pitch change can be corrected by either stabilator trim or increased controlwheel force."

I think it's due to the change in the shape of the wing. 

[Delta558 50]

4 minutes ago, Gregg_Seipp said:

I think it's due to the change in the shape of the wing. 

What I mean is the effect in the simulator - it is not at all responsive to adjustments in the airfile or the .cfg file. Change in the shape of the wing in real life, yes. In FS, it should respond to the input from those files but it doesn't - I've even programmed in nose-up change with the flaps. Go to the sim, drop the flaps and the nose goes down!

[Chocorua 112]

Thought I'd toss in another view, not unlike several others. I like the plane - very much. Overall I think a great job and my money well spent. I'll put lots of hours on this one. Have RL flight time in Warriors/Archers but none in the Arrow, fyi. 

1) Experienced the same drastic pitch-up on takeoff on a few flights. I seemed to have tamed this by using less T/O trim and by tweaking the flight dynamics elevator sensitivity. Last 5 T/O's have been smooth and stable. 

2) Noticed questionable high fuel consumption @ cruise with proper power/prop/mixture settings. 

3) Ailerons seemed too sensitive. I adjusted the aileron and roll stability settings in the A/C config file. 

4) I concur with others also regarding engine sounds which don't vary with power/prop adjustments plus mixture adjustments seemingly should be more effective (just guessing here). It's interesting how some SEL aircraft with similar engines are far more reacitve to mixture changes than others. 

Anyway, I am having lots of fun flying around New England (home airspace) with the JF Arrow. Also nice cozy VC and don't mind the ratty look; heck, it's what we mostly have around here anyway, lol.

Congrats on a fine product! 

Greg

   

[JYW 2,977]

52 minutes ago, Rainydaze said:

tweaking the flight dynamics elevator sensitivity.

I adjusted the aileron and roll stability settings in the A/C config file. 

Yes, Ive reduced elevator and aileron sensitivity too (and very small increases in pitch and roll stability) with pretty good results. I don't really like having to do this with an addon though, as it feels as though i'm just dumbing down the FDE, so look forward to Paul's next version of the FDE.

[tttocs 301]

16 hours ago, Delta558 said:

Scott - Fuel flow adjusted to point at mid 'cruise' on the FF gauge at 25/2400. Caught that one too late for inclusion.

 

Paul, thanks for looking at all of these things.  I did watch the video and then intended to do some testing with various loads, flap and trim settings but I ran into another odd problem.  I could NOT get the plane to start!  I've run into this with A2A planes once or twice as well.  Ran out of time last night, but I'll load up a default Cessna later today and then try again.  This has worked in the past for these kinds of issues.

 

Scott

[Chocorua 112]

2 hours ago, JYW said:

Yes, Ive reduced elevator and aileron sensitivity too (and very small increases in pitch and roll stability) with pretty good results. I don't really like having to do this with an addon though, as it feels as though i'm just dumbing down the FDE, so look forward to Paul's next version of the FDE.

Right, I understand and hesitate doing this, but then I think , 'what the heck'. I make a copy and fine tune to my hardware settings, preferences etc. Can't say I'd advise/suggest it to anyone, only saying it's what I do and usually can get good results. Look fwd to FDE updates as well. 

best,

Greg   

 

[JYW 2,977]

2 hours ago, tttocs said:

Paul, thanks for looking at all of these things.  I did watch the video and then intended to do some testing with various loads, flap and trim settings but I ran into another odd problem.  I could NOT get the plane to start!  I've run into this with A2A planes once or twice as well.  Ran out of time last night, but I'll load up a default Cessna later today and then try again.  This has worked in the past for these kinds of issues.

 

Scott

Scott,

In the simulator "Addons" menu, there's an option for "Just Flight Archer III" which has panel state presets for Cold & Dark and Read to Fly.   Setting the "Cold & Dark" would probably reset any config anomolies that would prevent starting (and failing that, choosing "Read to Fly" should definately do the trick!).

I believe the product models vacuum locks, so perhaps that was what was going on.

[tttocs 301]

 

 

10 minutes ago, JYW said:

Scott,

In the simulator "Addons" menu, there's an option for "Just Flight Archer III" which has panel state presets for Cold & Dark and Read to Fly.   Setting the "Cold & Dark" would probably reset any config anomolies that would prevent starting (and failing that, choosing "Read to Fly" should definately do the trick!).

I believe the product models vacuum locks, so perhaps that was what was going on.

Hi Bill,

Many thanks for the suggestions - yeah I tried toggling between the C&D and RTF last night and still no joy.  The engine shouldn't have been vaporlocked since I hadn't flown it in a day so it should've been nicely cooled down, but of course things can get into funny states sometimes.

Will definitely try again later today and I'm sure I'll get it sorted out.

 

Scott

[JYW 2,977]

2 minutes ago, tttocs said:

 

 

Hi Bill,

Many thanks for the suggestions - yeah I tried toggling between the C&D and RTF last night and still no joy.  The engine shouldn't have been vaporlocked since I hadn't flown it in a day so it should've been nicely cooled down, but of course things can get into funny states sometimes.

Will definitely try again later today and I'm sure I'll get it sorted out.

 

Scott

No problem Scott - good luck! Sure you'll have her skyside soon :smile: