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Sesquashtoo

XP11 B13 Ocean water landings...

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I set up a flight today, in Bermuda, and after taking off...and then heading over the ocean, (into the wind), and with full flaps...at 55knots into the wind...I can not make a successful water landing in the Cessna (default) float.  I have tried ten times, and each time, even...practically stalling just over the water, into the wind,  the tips of the pontoons seem to grab the water/waves, and I flip, crash and burn.

I am having no luck with water landings, where before in earlier XP11 betas, and in XP10, I have had many successful water landings.  No matter how slow in knots 55, to stall speed, JUST ABOVE THE WATER...I can NOT land without a flip and crash.

Have they tweaked the water restrictive drag values, as they have in general with trying to get any gear-based start to roll, other than almost full throttle?  I wonder, if water resistance on the pontoons, has also been overly affected.

It also might have to be with the simulated wave-heights, driven by the wind...which is being given data by xEnviro 1.6.

I dunno...will keep trying...but this is getting ridiculous.  I have the pontoons front tips attitude-high, even about at stall..and STILL they grab the water...and a flip over crash ensues... 

If you want to try your luck...go to Bermuda International right now...with xEnviro 1.6 feeding the wind values...and see if you can ocean land, without also a flip and crash. I'd be interested!

 

Post Edit:  I think that I might have found a serious B13 bug...but with respect to water landings.   For one thing, it is simply ridiculous the amount of throttle (I have to give the Cessna Float (default) FULL throttle to even get the plane to move forward. This must be addressed. I think Laminar went way overboard (if you forgive the pun...) with resistance to movement, prop wash, and torque...since about B3 or so.  Either I had in early betas, been moving at almost instantly, upto 20 knots at engine idle...to about by B7 onwards...that you can't even get default or 3rdP planes to move an inch unless you throttle up to almost max throttle, prop, turbo prop, or jet.  Austin went way overboard, to the other end of the throttle-plane roll spectrum.  Way overboard.  I think this resistance to movement is also playing out between the surface of the water, and the pontoons.  I should not be wiping out, like I just landed on runways, with my brakes fully locked up...you'd flip...and this is what is happening in my 60-55...to almost stall knots water landings, open ocean.

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I haven't tried water landings but it doesn't surprise me to read your comments. I know this is a beta version but it shouldn't be used as a 'research' version. The 'friction' element of XP 11 is regressing with each new version. Laminar Research should do its testing internally,  not publicly.

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Thanks for your post reply guys...yep..there is something wrong with the water drag upon other bodies.  I just placed myself on the water...and tried to lift off. I could not generate enough speed with the pontoons in the water, to rotate. I just kept running across the water on my take off run......  There is too much drag...as though you are actually trying to land upon wet sand, or concrete....or trying...to rotate into the air, from off of it!

Crash 'n burn...

 

 

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I did try it again and i did manage it to land on water and to takeoff from water. So not sure about a bug anymore. But there seems to be an effect file missing on my PC.

 

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11 minutes ago, jt8d9a said:

I did try it again and i did manage it to land on water and to takeoff from water. So not sure about a bug anymore. But there seems to be an effect file missing on my PC.

 

Ah, but that is upon a lake...inland water.  Wave heights, etc.  Try and do that once more off of the island of Bermuda, open ocean, etc.   I just landed fine at the same location, with xEnviro 1.6 doing the wind, within XP10.  No problems, no plane flip.  Went back again to XP11 B13, ocean landing...and wiped out.

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4 minutes ago, Longranger said:

The whole watereffects at this moment are work in progress. In the beginning they had hoped that the 3D water ( http://developer.x-plane.com/2016/10/developer-blooper-reel-water-world/ ) would be ready. It will also need a renovated water physics layer.

OK...I do understand that this is still Beta runs...but thought to post this inability to land open ocean, not inland lake/river

Just did the Bermuda Island landing into the wind with XP10, and had a great water landing, and taxi.  Tried the same exact scenario with XP 11 B13, and wiped out the second the pontoons made contact with the water surface....

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You are right, there is a difference between inland water and ocean water.

Same landing on ocean water:

lol

  • Upvote 1

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1 minute ago, Sesquashtoo said:

OK...I do understand that this is still Beta runs...but thought to post this inability to land open ocean, not inland lake/river

X-Plane 10 didn´t even knew the difference. And this is not really a part of the beta. 11.0 won´t have 3D water. What you see and use is no more than a foundation or a place holder for a new physics layer.

So there is no bug to fix, instead they have to finish the complete engine.

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Well I hate to sound like the simpleton of the bunch but why would LR release a floatplane and not allow users to land on the water unless it was meant to be tested and reported?

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I tried an ocean landing of off KLAX, with the default 172SP with floats successfully. I was able to do several landings and takeoffs, I did set my water settings very low. Made sure it was a calm day with winds at 160 degrees.  Perhaps the default water settings are too much, or maybe a bug in the area you were in.

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10 minutes ago, wb5okj said:

I tried an ocean landing of off KLAX, with the default 172SP with floats successfully. I was able to do several landings and takeoffs, I did set my water settings very low. Made sure it was a calm day with winds at 160 degrees.  Perhaps the default water settings are too much, or maybe a bug in the area you were in.

I have all my settings at full max. With those settings, it is impossible to land successfully if there is any wind content, upon open ocean water. Same full settings inside XP10, and no problem...anywhere.

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If your water settings are at max, I would find it surprising if you could land a small plane in it. That would be 20 ft waves at 20 knots or more.

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I just retried the open ocean landing of off KLAX with real wx on, wind was 220 at 16 waves set at 3 ft the landing was successful but very rough, I don't think you could land in more than 3ft waves the tail of the plane was dipping into the water while setting on the water. Was able to take off again

Please don't take this as being confrontational, but open ocean landings are possible if the water settings are set up to be reasonable. I thing X-Plane's idea of turbulence is much overdone, and I suspect that is the case of water settings also. I wish LR would tone down the turbulence in the simulation to be more reasonable. I have flown in turbulence over Greeley Co severe enough to pop out the rear windshield on a C172N and in that kind of turbulence didn't have as much trouble as you get in X-Plane. 

Happy day to everyone,

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12 hours ago, jt8d9a said:

lol

That is hilarious :biggrin:

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35 minutes ago, wb5okj said:

I just retried the open ocean landing of off KLAX with real wx on, wind was 220 at 16 waves set at 3 ft the landing was successful but very rough, I don't think you could land in more than 3ft waves the tail of the plane was dipping into the water while setting on the water. Was able to take off again

Please don't take this as being confrontational, but open ocean landings are possible if the water settings are set up to be reasonable. I thing X-Plane's idea of turbulence is much overdone, and I suspect that is the case of water settings also.

There was a problem with the early XP11 betas where you couldn't land at all, anywhere on water without flipping over. I don't know if that's been fixed, but addressing your last point I'd like to add two comments:

First, it's possible that some people having difficulty with water landings are using XEnviro, where it just isn't possible to know what the wind speed is, or how that's affecting wave height. That weather plugin just doesn't tell you what's going on under the hood.

Second, I live in an area (Pacific Northwest) where floatplanes operate, and it's not the usual thing that they do "open ocean landings." These planes operate in protected bays, where the wave height is minimal. A quick search of seaplane ports in this area, or anywhere in the world really, will show you that preferred landing areas are in protected waters.

The only planes I'm familiar with that can handle actual offshore ocean landings (within limits), are the ones with amphibious hull designs like a Grumman Goose, Albatross, PBY Catalina, etc. Land planes retrofitted with floats operate under more restricted parameters for wave height, although it's an open question how well X-Plane models those differences with boat-hull planes.

 

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3 hours ago, Paraffin said:

Second, I live in an area (Pacific Northwest) where floatplanes operate, and it's not the usual thing that they do "open ocean landings." These planes operate in protected bays, where the wave height is minimal. A quick search of seaplane ports in this area, or anywhere in the world really, will show you that preferred landing areas are in protected waters.

This is very important to mention. And since our sims can't differentiate between open ocean and protected water, it's quite necessary to manipulate water and weather settings to gain the effect of a protected bay if you want to even use those.

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On 3/4/2017 at 9:45 AM, jt8d9a said:

You are right, there is a difference between inland water and ocean water.

Same landing on ocean water:

lol

 

LMAO!  Never seen wings rip off the airframe before in any sim!  lol

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15 hours ago, wb5okj said:

Please don't take this as being confrontational, but open ocean landings are possible if the water settings are set up to be reasonable. I thing X-Plane's idea of turbulence is much overdone,

I don´t think the turbulences are the real issue. The whole dynamic of a water landing in X-Plane 10 was wrong. In reality. No plane can start directly into the air. First it floats. You start to pick up speed but the drag is extreme. If you reach a critical speed, something changes. All planes hav a step in their floating bodies. If you reach a certain speed the plane no longer floats, it goes up the step and "flies" over the waves like a speedboat. The surface of the water works like a solid body and the plane more or less stands on the surface. In this state the drag by the watter decreases. Only due to this reduced drag the plane can reach a speed where its wings can carry the plane.

If you land on the waterthe process works in the opposite direction. You touch the water and you skip along the surface, till you you become so slow, that the surface no longer carries your weight and you sink till your floats are so deep in the water that they can carry the whight of the whole plane.

X-Plane 10 only kinew the states: It floats in the water-> it fliesl.To even allow a water landing you had a certain control to directly set the height of the waves (on the whole planet).

If I see it correctly at the moment the height of the waves is determined by the wind.

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If wave action is being considered a part of X-plane, the physical parameters of water itself would need to be modeled to accept outside forces.  In the grand scheme of things for X-Plane, I don't know if they would go through with such in-depth simulation.  If water is a physical surface, that continually moves and even changes direction, an aircraft landing in it, would create a transformation of the wave action, meaning that when water moves in one direction and an aircraft lands, say perpendicular to the action, then the water would need to change direction with the aircraft.  Then also consider the density of water, the displacement of the water relative to the aircraft as ell as the vertical motion of the aircraft while sitting in the water.

 

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