AA Settings XP11? Help with jaggies

[Paraffin 2,197]

1 hour ago, Jimm said:

Yes, too dumbed down would be a good way of putting it.  My first impression of the rollout of the new UI was that it mimicked the the UI of DTGFS.  That to me was the wrong direction for LR.  The old UI was a little too sterile, but it got the job done.  As for Austin's justification for the new UI, he was consulting the wrong person, given that this simulator is user driven, it should have been left up to the users to provide the right kind of feedback. 

I doubt it was the result of one conversation with an influential CEO. I disagree with the direction they took; it would have been possible to put the more fine-grained settings on an Advanced tab, like many games do. But I do understand the explanation Ben gave in one of the dev blog posts: It's about tech support. Laminar is a tiny company without a big tech support staff. This is the explanation given in that dev post by Ben Supnik:

Quote

 

Here’s a scenario that played out over and over and over and over during the last few years: a user with a high-end gaming machine would get X-Plane, max out all of the sliders, and find the sim ran like a slide-show. The user would then randomly reduce some of the sliders, find the sim still ran like a slide show and now also looked like hell, and would complain to tech support.

Tech support would forward me the report, and when I’d get a screenshot of the rendering settings, it was clear: the user was not getting even close to the best performance/quality trade-off possible for his hardware.

X-Plane 10’s settings were too numerous, too complicated, too esoteric, too astonishing, and way too low level. Users were setting them incorrectly, and this is entirely understandable, because you had to understand the underlying rendering engine’s implementation to set them correctly.

 

Read the whole post in the link below. It's interesting and he spells out what the different parameters are that you can still tweak manually:

http://developer.x-plane.com/2017/01/where-have-all-my-settings-gone/

[ryanbatc 12,774]

I've read that blog etc.  Is there a way to change cloud density?  Clouds just smoke my computer....  I read that clouds are tied to the visual effects slider... but any lower and I lose HDR.

They basically took an amazing sim XP10 and just crippled its settings.  Users have many different machines... ugh... we need to adjust certain things.

Also I tried this tool, and I'm not sure it's working right.  LUA is enabled but the settings seem to have no affect on my fps.  And the clouds are just as dense no matter what sliders I change in the script.

I must need a new PC lol!

[Paraffin 2,197]

1 hour ago, ryanbatcund said:

I've read that blog etc.  Is there a way to change cloud density?  Clouds just smoke my computer....  I read that clouds are tied to the visual effects slider... but any lower and I lose HDR.

No way that I know of. That was a setting in XP10 but I guess it's buried now? Obviously you can adjust it to a certain extent with how you set up the type of clouds and amount of layering on the weather menu, but not if you're using injected real weather. 

You can get more control with a 3rd party weather plugin. SkyMaxx Pro has settings for trading off cloud coverage vs. frame rate. It's been a while since I've run XEnviro, but I remember it being framerate friendly due to the 2D cloud rendering. 

Quote

I must need a new PC lol!

I hate to say it, but that might be the root of the problem. 

I have the same graphics card as you (GTX970) but a stronger CPU and much more RAM. I'm not seeing a major hit on frame rate with default XP11 clouds.

I'm running graphics setting at High/HDR, maximum world objects, and anti-aliasing at 2X SSAA+FXAA. No changes in the Nvidia control panel other than turning threaded optimization off (which I'm not sure is still recommended, but it doesn't hurt).

I'm getting very good frame rates (average around 40 fps) at 1920x1200 monitor res, and I don't see any noticeable jaggies, or that segmented white paint line at the edge of runways in your screen shot.

Your 8 GB of RAM is the minimum spec for running X-Plane 11. Laminar's recommended spec is "16-24 GB RAM or more," so it might be that a memory crunch is affecting your frame rate, but I'm not sure. 

[JLSeagull 191]

3 hours ago, Jimm said:

.... I did try out a Lua based advanced settings feature (freeware at the org) but it totally wrecked my sim and I had to get rid of it.

You as well Jim? I had a double whammy yesterday when, after sorting out the Lua problems, the newly-installed Windows Creators Edition proceeded to trash my graphics card!!  All in all not a good day - but at least the 'yachties' made me laugh.

[gpb500 10]

12 hours ago, ryanbatcund said:

Yes, it's definitely a per scenery problem.  The author of this scenery does a very nice job of modelling, but the jaggies appear worse compared with stock scenery.  Could be my older video card etc.  I'm just curious if other people use driver level mods like nvidia CP.

Thanks Ryan.  The problem is that higher resolution textures and 3D edges will cause more shimmer/jaggies (aliasing) than low resolution (fuzzy) textures or ones that have fake 2D edges.  Everything is a trade-off and judgment is required when building scenery.  I usually opt for 3D when practical especially if it's on objects placed where you might casually get close to (i.e., taxi past, park in front of, etc)...this way it doesn't get fuzzy and lose resolution and helps the whole immersion thing (also get nice ambient occlusion baked shadows for the textures).  Example at SNA is the commuter terminals at each end of the main terminal section.  If you look at the windows, they are inset and the frames are 3D and protrude.  At distance, they shimmer...but as you pull up to them on the ramp, they look...well...3D.  Nothing fuzzy.  The windows in the long section of the terminal are high resolution 2D textures...they do not shimmer...but they will get fuzzy if you zoom in close.

I haven't tried a 4K monitor here, but on a 2560x1440 with 4AA and still some shimmering, though it's not too distracting.  The size of the monitor matters too...I'm at 27".  Pixel density is the key.  You might try a couple settngs in this article explaining the various methods to reduce them.

https://www.lifewire.com/antialiasing-pc-games-831764

Also, there is no real difference between building scenery for XP 10 or 11 except that there are now more texturing options available with 11 with reflection and "metalness".  The building of objects is identical.  Hope that link helps...I agree shimmering can be very annoying.  Hope this helps.

-- Greg

[Jimmy RFR 406]

I find it slightly humorous that a discussion about AA and jaggies went off in a direction about UI choices, considering that there weren't any other additional choices regarding AA in XP10. I also wish they'd placed an 'advanced' tab with some of the settings they've decided to hide, but since you can still fiddle with them at a text-file level, the loss is purely that of convenience. There are areas where the new AI shines. I really love the graphical airport / parking spot section, for example.

I personally think the trade-off was acceptable - I'd be willing to bet half the new XP users wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that new UI; the sim after all is not THAT much different than it was before.

1 hour ago, gpb500 said:

I haven't tried a 4K monitor here, but on a 2560x1440 with 4AA and still some shimmering, though it's not too distracting.  The size of the monitor matters too...I'm at 27".  Pixel density is the key.  You might try a couple settngs in this article explaining the various methods to reduce them.

https://www.lifewire.com/antialiasing-pc-games-831764

That's excellent advice. Pixel density means just as much as resolution when it comes to the visual representation of anti-aliasing.

I run a 2560x1440 on a 32" monitor for the majority of my simming, and while I love the size, the trade-off is that I have a pixel density that roughly equals a conventional 24" 1920x1080 monitor. So I end up seeing the same shimmering / jagged edges as that size of monitor. On the other end of the spectrum, I develop on a laptop with a 15.6" 1920x1080 monitor which displays noticeably less shimmering / jaggies even with far less aggressive AA.

[alpha12125 213]

19 hours ago, ryanbatcund said:

I agree with you there...  I much preferred the XP10 settings.  I watched that long video Austin did after release.  Turns out some co-ceo from Google told him even he couldn't figure out the old GUI, so I guess that's a big reason why they made it "idiot proof" in XP11.  It's too dumbed down.

at first i was reluctant like you where, but reading the developer blog comments of the last three blogs, i am agreeing to ben`s viewpoint.  There is one slider left that will cripple your system if you put it to max. And that is the reflection slider. And lo and behold people smacking him in the comments because they throw the sliders to the max and the performance is abysimal.

Let´s face it, if only 1% of your users truly understand the options and it causes sigificant support issues, then you revisit it. Way too many users don´t care what the settings are they want them to the max. I will admit there are some edge cases where more options would be better but in general it works great. 

Personally i spent hours after hours finetuning xp10 and in xp11 i get the same performance after 2 minutes. It`s abit like the double clutch systems in cars. They work better and apart from 1% race drivers, they are significantly faster for everyone else. But every "pro" is adament that he is faster in a manual and can drive better than a stupid automatic ;)

I love this just for the simple fact that ben does not have to answer 20 support mails a week where users complain that x-plane is broken because they get 8 fps on their latest maxxed out rig :D

[Guest]

I briefly tried DSR yesterday and I didn't really see a benefit: I had to go max DSR (2.0x) + 2xAA to get a good image, but lost frames compared to 4xAA without DSR. DSR + 1xAA was worse in my opinion than 4xAA without DSR. My focus isn't the exterior however - it's the EICAS messages in the FF757v2. I want to be able to clearly read those from the left seat and apparently a lot of AA is needed to achieve this.

(27", 1080p, i7-4770k@3,5, GTX1070, 16GB Ram)

[Jimm 437]

2 hours ago, domae001 said:

I briefly tried DSR yesterday and I didn't really see a benefit: I had to go max DSR (2.0x) + 2xAA to get a good image, but lost frames compared to 4xAA without DSR. DSR + 1xAA was worse in my opinion than 4xAA without DSR. My focus isn't the exterior however - it's the EICAS messages in the FF757v2. I want to be able to clearly read those from the left seat and apparently a lot of AA is needed to achieve this.

(27", 1080p, i7-4770k@3,5, GTX1070, 16GB Ram)

Could you send a screenshot our way?  I'd like to see what you are talking about, because at first glance of your post, it seems logical to use the zoom function to see the screen.  You may also want to adjust your field of view, in the XP11 settings, which I believe would be a better solution.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jimm said:

Could you send a screenshot our way?  I'd like to see what you are talking about, because at first glance of your post, it seems logical to use the zoom function to see the screen.  You may also want to adjust your field of view, in the XP11 settings, which I believe would be a better solution.

I didn't take any, so I'd have to go back and redo it. Of course, I could of course use the zoom function, but I want to be able to just glance at the EICAS display and read the messages without hurting my eyes and staying focussed on the primary displays. My FOV is 90 degrees, so I can see the EICAS display, the text just doesn't get sharp enough with DSR only.

[Jimm 437]

3 minutes ago, domae001 said:

I didn't take any, so I'd have to go back and redo it. Of course, I could of course use the zoom function, but I want to be able to just glance at the EICAS display and read the messages without hurting my eyes and staying focussed on the primary displays. My FOV is 90 degrees, so I can see the EICAS display, the text just doesn't get sharp enough with DSR only.

90 degrees?  That seems a little wide.  Where is your eyepoint position, relative to the Captain's seat? Have you tried setting up camera positions around the VC to help you see all the panels?  I have a few jets that I fly, and I've never had an issue with seeing that screen, and I'm working with a 17" laptop.

[Guest]

Yes, 90 degress is wide, but it helps my orientation a lot, because I can see more stuff and manipulate more switches without changing the view. I did set up different views (great default feature of XP btw!), because it helps pre-flight and in-flight. But on takeoff and approach I prefer to not having to deal with the views, so I opt for the wide view. (I'd love an ultrawide monitor in case someone is looking for a birthday present for me...)

Here are the two images, I hope there is still some difference visible (it's more noticably in the sim).

With 4xAA (notice the yellow EICAS messages: with a bit of effort, they are actually readable)

With 2xAA, reading the EICAS messages gets way more difficult or gets close to guessing:

With only FXAA, they become totally unreadable, haven't included that. Both images are without DSR, but I found that I need DSR + 2xAA to achieve the same result as shown with 4xAA and get worse performance in return.