VAS/Memory Leak/OOM issue - Request for info by LM.

[WebMaximus 372]

40 minutes ago, Cargostorm said:

If you are not urged to take the update path, this helps to avoid OOMs and other problems:

- stay with P3D 3.3.5 or earlier

- stay with Nvidia 376.33 driver

- if possible stay with Win 7/8 or be careful when Win10 makes its updates.

Such a short post and yet with so much value in it.

What you say couldn't be more true and I urge anyone with VAS issues to read and then re-read your post.

I'm positive this is most certainly the best way to avoid VAS issues until there's a "real" solution be it LM and/or Nvidia finding and addressing the actual culprit or a brand new 64-bit version of P3D where VAS no longer is a concern as long as you have enough memory in your machine.

[ffantasy67 51]

10 hours ago, Tabs said:

It's definitely the Nvidia driver - I have a GTX 1070 and if I roll back to 376.33 or earlier I do not see the constant loss of VAS in flight. We spent a couple days thinking the 747 was somehow responsible back when this started due to the complaints at support - it's reproducible with default aircraft even though and does not occur in FSX or FSX:SE with the newer drivers, only P3D. Problem now is that rolling back to those drivers isn't possible for people with newer cards like the 1080 Ti. Also not feasible for those of us who play other games that require at least the "game-ready" version for that specific new game.

+1

 

[Johnny19 344]

It is nvidia driver. 376.33 works best on my 1060 oc strix card. I have the newest driver available, running a few new titles on Steam. And sometimes I can fly without vas issues, and sometime I can't reach top of climb without vas warning, so I put virtual flying aside for the past ten days.

[Cruachan 705]

3 hours ago, pracines said:

I understand your point, but this logic goes nowhere in the face of advancing technology and the requirement of simmers to have greater and greater realism.

Hi Paul,

Indeed. However, that was not my point. There is nothing in the flight sim world these days, and for the foreseeable future, that technology such as currently exists in my hardware/software setup can't handle comfortably. In time that will change, of course,  but significant progression, such as you describe, is not likely to happen for several years. Meantime I remain content in the knowledge that, for me, Windows7 remains a hassle-free zone. I know I have a very stable 64bit operating system capable of handling every current 64bit application with aplomb and, I anticipate, the 64bit version of Prepar3D will be no different. The only potential fly in the ointment is DirectX 12. Whether LM use the opportunity to exploit any cutting edge features offered by this API remains to be seen. Even if they do, it remains unlikely that I would feel any pressure to upgrade in the short term.

As for the 'requirement of simmers to have greater and greater realism' it is hard to imagine how much more real it can be than I am seeing at present in my heavily modded P3D 32bit. I'm fairly sure that Virtual Reality will be the next significant step forward in which case good ol' Windows7 64bit has its sleeves rolled up and ready to join the party for at least as long as Developer support continues or until Microsoft pulls the plug in 2020.

I'm not trying to undermine your decision to 'upgrade' to Windows10 and, believe it or not, nor am I attempting to justify my decision to remain on Windows7. I keep reading posts from people who have become irritated and resentful of Microsoft's big brother tactics. They could have been spared all this unwelcome nonsense by holding off for a bit longer while noting that in reality Windows10 has very little that is new and needed by us simmers to survive comfortably in the digital world. Windows7 remains a powerful operating system in its own right, probably one of the best ever to come from Microsoft, and it still has much to offer before being finally laid to rest.

To get back on topic, OOM's are still happening whether you are on 64bit Windows10 or 7. In this equation the operating system is less relevant as it has more to do with VAS restrictions imposed by 32bit application environments.

You stated: "Each new add-on increases realism and takes another bite out of VAS. This trend will never stop and this is why it is vital that 64-bit enter the scene." While this is true, I can't help but feel that this is more an excuse for Software Developers to avoid having to make more efficient use of what they have rather than use the  64bit card as a convenient cover for sloppy programming techniques.

Finally, ask yourself whether changing to Windows10 has really made any significant difference to your simming or gaming experience?

Regards,

Mike

[kevinfirth 1,392]

17 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

Finally, ask yourself whether changing to Windows10 has made any significant difference to your simming or gaming experience?

I found an immediate and sustained 30-40% increase in fps under exact same system addons and settings... I'm loathe to attribute the increase to windows10 alone, but the fact remains that was the only change I made..

[Cruachan 705]

Hi Kevin,

I agree, a fresh install of Windows7 might also have achieved the same outcome.

Regards,

Mike

[Julean 12]

I have win 7 64 bit Nvidia GTX 970 4 GB, i7-6700 3.4 GHz, And the latest P3D OOM.. I have tried to tweak me out of it; but unsuccesfull   And tried the recommend older driver and it worked better.

After some updates, some programs, i cant remember which now, demanded never drivers. 

Its strange that Lockheed Martin don't have the skill to fix a computer programming issue.

The choices around FSX and P3D by the owners, are really peculiar.

 

Regards Jens

[specialist 51]

No matter what, we are always going to be stuck with the same pesky 4Gb VAS. Once that is exceeded, that's all she wrote, OOM!

[Cruachan 705]

39 minutes ago, specialist said:

 

No matter what, we are always going to be stuck with the same pesky 4Gb VAS. Once that is exceeded, that's all she wrote, OOM!

 

Hi Johnny,

In a way you are quite correct. However, it has been demonstrated beyond reasonable dispute that with specific graphic driver support it is perfectly possible to survive comfortably without ever seeing an OOM message. 

That's the intention behind this thread - to help LM convey any relevant information to NVIDIA which would help them reproduce the error in-house, isolate the cause and find a remedy for this vexatious problem. They are asking for our input. We have a window of opportunity.

Regards,

Mike

[pracines 823]

13 hours ago, Cruachan said:

To get back on topic, OOM's are still happening whether you are on 64bit Windows10 or 7. In this equation the operating system is less relevant as it has more to do with VAS restrictions imposed by 32bit application environments.

You stated: "Each new add-on increases realism and takes another bite out of VAS. This trend will never stop and this is why it is vital that 64-bit enter the scene." While this is true, I can't help but feel that this is more an excuse for Software Developers to avoid having to make more efficient use of what they have rather than use the  64bit card as a convenient cover for sloppy programming techniques.

Hi Mike,

The windows 10/7 debate is one I'm not qualified to even enter into - it is a personal decision that has to do with ones privacy and lawful rights.

The topic of LM or DTG finally making an optimized 64-bit successor to FSX/P3D is what I mainly care about. This is for too many reasons to report here, but here are a few.

We have seen many times in various forums " lower the sliders":

Orbx says one does not need autogen sliders at max with the FTX Global range of products installed. However I know for sure, and so does everybody, that this recommendation would not exist if OOM was not an issue. I have flown with full max settings, and with reasonable (no OOM) settings - I prefer full max settings, don't we all? its looks mush better to have a full forest and full city blocks. Orbx wants their customers to be totally happy, but they know OOM does not make us happy hence the recommendation.

PMDG has a lengthy section in their product manuals concerning OOM - Surly PMDG knows what they are talking about and that section will not need to exist once 64-bit arrives. How about the topic of an EFB in PMDG modern airliners. Surly we know how advanced that PMDG has made their FMC to be (an absolute marvel), and an EFB would already have been included in the 777. The camera system in the -300 extension was a genius effort, yet it can barely be used because of performance issues. But add that EFB and another bite out of VAS happens, so the "non essential" has to be scrapped until 64-bit arrives. Of course PMDG and we want that EFB installed, and include a fully operational circuit board as well; the 32-bit OOM plague keeps this from happening. I could start a CaptianSim/ PMDG comparison in this paragraph, but no thank you.  

The excellent Avsim P3D guide is full of recommendations to avoid OOMs. If LM had no intention of making a 64-bit successor I would predict that this document would end up being the champion of the most read/downloaded item on Avsim. The advice in there works, and it has a specific section about VAS/OOM on page 137. Once 64-bit arrives this document will have to be revised or a new one will have to be made and it may only need to be 20 pages rather than 159.

We have seen thru the years LM in the Update/Hot Fix notes speak about either increasing VAS efficiency or reducing VAS consumption....<sigh> it happens so often, yet the problem remains. We all know LM is totally aware that 99% of their customers use add-ons or at least modify the base product somehow to increase realism, and that there is no point in making a case that P3D alone does not OOM with max settings. Time and time again people against 64-bit use this "clean/green" install as a tool for debate when all the while they are in the exact same boat but for whatever reason they cannot admit the problem and/or demand a solution....backwards compatibility is a plague too whether we like it or not.

Have you seen the FSLabs recommended settings for P3D? Yes, even the written warnings near the nose gear are there in hi definition, but if a terminal building is totally missing from the scenery (reduce sliders) to avoid OOM, one has to ask themselves which feature they prefer between the two. It is crazy to accept this as a norm or a trend.

64-bit was the easy answer a long time ago even for FS9 and we would have been in great shape by now, but the love of backward compatibility blinded the community into this OOM nightmare of tradeoffs that other genres and LR (XP10+) resolved.

If I was totally thrilled with XP 11, I would not even be in this conversation because I have run XP11 for 5 days straight MAX settings with no OOM or CTD. A clean install of P3D 3.4 HF3 or FSX-SE can't do that...them AI planes, ground vehicles, boats, and cars at 100% will have something to say about that after one 24 hour day of takeoffs and landings.  

We all are plagued with this VAS limit and to be in favor of sticking with 32-bit is logic that goes nowhere in the face of advancing tech.

Respectfully,

[Cruachan 705]

Hi sfgiants13,

i suggest you start a new thread. Your query is far more likely to be noticed than buried in this one.

Regards,

Mike

[Egbert Drenth 250]

On 4/16/2017 at 2:53 AM, jabloomf1230 said:

Like I said above, 32 bit P3d is collapsing under its own weight.

Right ?!?
It clearly is a NVidia driver issue, but it is P3D collapsing under its own weight?!?

FYI: P3D on my system hasn't collapsed at all yet, and still enjoying it.
Of course 64bit would be much better, but to say the 32bit version is collapsing...

[Cruachan 705]

Hi Paul,

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to detail your thoughts.

Again, while much of what you are saying is true I think it's really about compromise and what works for you. Some slider settings can certainly make it more likely that an OOM will appear, but I would argue that it's really more about optimising performance while still maintaining a satisfactory amount of detail. Don't forget P3D's sliders work differently to those of FSX. I see masses of autogen without the need to pull sliders full right. I confess your statements regarding X-Plane make me shudder! There is no way I could max out the settings without reducing the sim's frame rate to the sub 20's and performance to a stuttery mess. Certainly things improve away from urban areas and busy detailed airports where frame rates rise quite nicely, but otherwise such settings would be asking for trouble. 

The OOM problem has resurfaced since the 376.33 driver set. Evidently some as yet unidentified graphic driver coding change/s appears to be interfering with the way Prepar3D is releasing VAS memory for Scenery that is no longer in use during a flight. It is indeed strange that this has not shown on LM's radar before now because, and quite clearly, the memory leak is occurring under default sim conditions, as has been demonstrated by 'marcon8122' in the thread over at the LM Forum. That aside, they do know now and we should be grasping this opportunity to help them to address the issue.

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6312&t=124227

This fix, should it materialise, will increase the longevity and usability of the 32bit version of Prepar3D while it's 64bit successor, if or when it appears, continues to establish itself.

Regards,

Mike

Edit: Changes made to line 2 par 3 to clarify which drivers are in fact affecting this issue. Thanks to WebMaximus for drawing my attention to the inconsistency when I referred to the 376.xx drivers. This would, of course imply that all drivers in this series, including and before 376.33, were involved which, as we know, is not the case.

 

[WebMaximus 372]

37 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

The OOM problem has resurfaced since the 376.xx driver series.

I always heard the VAS issue related to the graphics drivers was not seen until after version 376.33 but you say 376.xx so are you saying this issue was there also before 376.33?

[Cruachan 705]

1 hour ago, WebMaximus said:

I always heard the VAS issue related to the graphics drivers was not seen until after version 376.33 but you say 376.xx so are you saying this issue was there also before 376.33?

Thanks, I stand corrected. Brain slip!

Regards,

Mike

Edit: I've now edited the post.