wipeout01

Doubt about Holding Pattern (Direct Entry)

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Hello

I am training the direct entry, but I have a doubt. I have seen several video tutorials but I do not understand well what should I do as soon I cross the FIX.

I did a drawing, in which you can see clearly my doubt.

24f0e3s.jpg

That is exactly my doubt.

I cross the fix (the blue point) and I start to turn to the right (this is a standard holding pattern), and you see the turn in the green dotted arc.

Okay, I am turning, but, how much time should I do this? 1 minute?

And the goal is to reach the course 081?

So... I guess that as soon I cross the fix... I start to turn to the right, I count 1 minute, and I am turning, and turning until I reach the heading 081? And I should reach the heading 081 in 1 minute, not before or after? Is this correct?

That is my doubt.

I would appreciate your help in this.

Cheers

 

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17 minutes ago, wipeout01 said:

guess that as soon I cross the fix... I start to turn to the right, I count 1 minute, and I am turning, and turning until I reach the heading 081? And I should reach the heading 081 in 1 minute, not before or after? Is this correct?

No. Don't overthink it! 

When you cross the fix, just do a standard rate turn on to the outbound course  (+/- wind correction if you already have an idea). This turn will not take one minute as the change in heading will be less than 180 degrees (in your example).

Once you roll the wings level on the outbound course, start timing one minute (+/- wind correction). Then start a standard rate turn to intercept the inbound track.

Remember: the goal of the entry procedure is to get you in to the hold reasonably tidily whilst remaining inside the protected airspace. You don't need to overcomplicate it! 

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Aha, you said... This turn will not take one minute as the change in heading will be less than 180 degrees

But, later on you said... Once you roll the wings level on the outbound course, start timing one minute

???

I am a bit confused. Let's see if I understood this well :)

  • As for the turn as soon I cross the fix... I roll the wings (turning to the right) to intercept the outbound leg.
  • I will intercept the outbound leg when my heading shows 081.
  • As soon I have my heading in 081 I maintain it, flying in a straight line.
  • Then I should start timing 1 minute to follow the outbound leg

Is that what you meant?

Cheers

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I'd agree with most of what Skelsey except a few things.  Don't start your turn immediately.  Given that near perpendicular crossing of the fix give it about 10-15 secs.  There is math to back this up(geometry).  Then turn to your outbound course.  The reasoning quite simply is if you turn outbound to soon you almost certainly overshoot in the inbound course.  It is one minute outbound no correction for winds.  The wind corrections are applied after you complete the inbound leg as that is the leg you are attempting to keep to 1 min.  But given your entry your just going to get an erroneous correction your first leg anyways.

So fly the 1 min outbound and then turn inbound.  intercept and start keeping track of your crap angle and your times.  First time inbound is probably 1.5 min.  Any more or less try adjusting the outbound time by the difference from 1.5. After that just keep adjusting the outbound leg off the difference of 1 min inbound.  Easy peasy.

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I would also say you aren't intercepting an outbound leg. Your just flying to heading for a certain time that will have you roll wings level on the inbound radial and fly inbound for 1 min.  

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We are missing some information to fully answer your question. What is the heading prior to crossing the holding fix? The reason I ask because it is simple math to figure out how long you will be in the turn assuming you maintain a perfect standard rate turn of 3 degrees per second. 

The initial outbound leg is 1 or 1 1/2 minutes per the note in the AIM. After which it is adjusted to make the inbound leg 1 or 1 1/2 minutes. (ICAO the outbound leg is the timed portion.) This timing is started when you are over or abeam the fix or if you cannot determine over or abeam then when the turn is complete. i.e. You are on heading 081.

The FAA does state to adjust for winds using drift correction on the inbound and outbound legs. If you know the winds prior to crossing the fix then you would adjust your outbound heading, if not then you when you intercept the inbound leg you will find a heading that is required to keep you aligned. A good technique is to then triple the outbound heading. i.e. If the wind is coming from the north and on the inbound leg you need to hold 271 degrees to maintain track then on the outbound leg you would triple the drift 30 degrees and maintain a heading of 051.

With the advent of RNAV equipment holding has become more of a lost art these days. The reality becoming that many pilots allow the black box to do all of the hard work. In fact, when I teach FMS holding it is more confirming that the FMS has got the hold correct. Once the crew does that I am generally happy and often do not require nor desire to watch a black box to the work.

 

-Ken

CFI, CFII, MEI

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Thanks a lot for all the information you are providing me. Really, I appreciate this very much.

However, I would like to start little by little, and in my case I will be flying this entry in a perfect world without winds (for the moment).

I have a doubt I do not understand. Sorry if you replied this before, if so, I did not understand it well.

  • Let's focus about when I cross the fix. To reach the outbound leg I will roll my wings, and you see the path in a green dotted arc, as it is shown in the picture.
  • My exact question is, if I have to fly this green dotted green arc for a certain time? 1 minute? or is not necessary to start any timing?

Observe, please, I am not asking about the timing for the legs, I am asking about when I cross the fix (for first time, as soon I enter the holding pattern), I have to roll my wings to reach the heading 081. That meneuvering will create a kind of arc (green dotted line) and I don't know if I am forced to tackle this maneuvering in a certain amount of time? or perhaps may I just roll my wings to reach the heading 081 and that is enough.

21j9nxf.jpg

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6 minutes ago, wipeout01 said:

fly this green dotted green arc for a certain time?

No.

As I said before: all you are going to do is fly a Rate One turn, the same as all your turns in a holding pattern, and roll out on heading 081.

A rate one turn is defined as 360 degrees in two minutes (hence why your turn & slip probably has "2 min" written on it). Thus, it stands to reason that unless you are approaching the fix exactly on the inbound heading of 261, the turn to 081 cannot possibly take 1 minute -- if your heading is less than 261 approaching the fix then the turn will take longer than 1 minute because the change of heading will be more than 180 degrees, and if it is greater than 261 the turn will take less than 1 minute because the change of heading is less than 180 degrees.

Once you roll the wings level on heading 081, start the stopwatch, time 1 minute, then start a rate one turn towards 261 to intercept the inbound track, though depending on your outbound tracking you may have to adjust the tightness of this turn slightly in order to neatly intercept the inbound track.

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1 hour ago, wipeout01 said:

Thanks a lot for all the information you are providing me. Really, I appreciate this very much.

However, I would like to start little by little, and in my case I will be flying this entry in a perfect world without winds (for the moment).

I have a doubt I do not understand. Sorry if you replied this before, if so, I did not understand it well.

  • Let's focus about when I cross the fix. To reach the outbound leg I will roll my wings, and you see the path in a green dotted arc, as it is shown in the picture.
  • My exact question is, if I have to fly this green dotted green arc for a certain time? 1 minute? or is not necessary to start any timing?

Observe, please, I am not asking about the timing for the legs, I am asking about when I cross the fix (for first time, as soon I enter the holding pattern), I have to roll my wings to reach the heading 081. That meneuvering will create a kind of arc (green dotted line) and I don't know if I am forced to tackle this maneuvering in a certain amount of time? or perhaps may I just roll my wings to reach the heading 081 and that is enough.

21j9nxf.jpg

It's not necessary to time the green arc turn. WHEN you cross the fix, just turn to the 081 heading. That's it. However long it takes is however long it takes.

Don't over complicate things. The only part of the hold you will be timing is the inbound and outbound legs. No turns should be timed in the hold.

  • Upvote 1

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3 hours ago, KenG said:

We are missing some information to fully answer your question. What is the heading prior to crossing the holding fix? The reason I ask because it is simple math to figure out how long you will be in the turn assuming you maintain a perfect standard rate turn of 3 degrees per second. 

The initial outbound leg is 1 or 1 1/2 minutes per the note in the AIM. After which it is adjusted to make the inbound leg 1 or 1 1/2 minutes. (ICAO the outbound leg is the timed portion.) This timing is started when you are over or abeam the fix or if you cannot determine over or abeam then when the turn is complete. i.e. You are on heading 081.

The FAA does state to adjust for winds using drift correction on the inbound and outbound legs. If you know the winds prior to crossing the fix then you would adjust your outbound heading, if not then you when you intercept the inbound leg you will find a heading that is required to keep you aligned. A good technique is to then triple the outbound heading. i.e. If the wind is coming from the north and on the inbound leg you need to hold 271 degrees to maintain track then on the outbound leg you would triple the drift 30 degrees and maintain a heading of 051.

With the advent of RNAV equipment holding has become more of a lost art these days. The reality becoming that many pilots allow the black box to do all of the hard work. In fact, when I teach FMS holding it is more confirming that the FMS has got the hold correct. Once the crew does that I am generally happy and often do not require nor desire to watch a black box to the work.

 

-Ken

CFI, CFII, MEI

Why bother figuring out how much time is needed for a turn to a specific heading? There's really no point to over complicate it.

  • Upvote 2

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My guess would be that ATC would expected you to fly the green dotted arc until you are on a heading of 081, especially if they gave you the direct entry into the holding of 261.

 

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I have always been told to turn to the outbound course upon crossing the fix. It's a DIRECT entry and should be treated no differently than if you were lined up perfectly on the inbound course. Hit the fix, start the turn and fly outbound and then after the length of the outbound leg has been flown (1 minute, 4 minutes, 5 miles, whatever the hold specifies), turn inbound and intercept the fix. Your next turn will be 180 degrees and such and you can make corrections from there.

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20 hours ago, ahsmatt7 said:

Why bother figuring out how much time is needed for a turn to a specific heading? There's really no point to over complicate it.

Because he keeps asking. 

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I know the topic is about 4 months old.

To the original poster: Try to fly the same hold with a decent amount of wind, say from direction 360 or even 270. If you can fly a hold properly with a decent wind - then you understand hold. The inbound leg (261) must be 1 minute long (assuming you are flying a 1 minute hold), it may mean that your outbound leg (081 in your picture) may have to be longer or shorter than 1 minute to adjust for wind. 

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