Aimee and Cryss I hope your're watching

[pracines 823]

1 hour ago, domae001 said:

I always chuckle when people who prefer P3D bring up phrases like "you compete against Lockheed Martin", "you really want to go head to head with Lockheed Martin" like P3D was the only reason for their 47 billion $ revenue and as if their CEO would receive daily briefings about the progress to 64bit. 

And to OP: Checking steam stats really does not tell a lot. Ready for takeoff is probably aimed at non-steam gamers and is being distributed and marketed outside of steam. According to Aerosoft, box sales actually matter to them, at least in Germany (and if you walk though a "Media Markt", you can clearly tell they're right). XP11 is like 3 weeks old and costs a lot more than FSX (that has gone on sale quite frequently), so you clearly cannot compare the two. And as you said yourself: It is being sold outside of steam as well. And Aerofly is actually doing okay, I guess. But if you know so well what makes a sim succeed, you should try applying as project manager at Aerosoft or DTG. They'd all love to know how to produce the perfect sim for beginners, amateurs and enthusiasts in a reasonable timeframe and without braking the bank.

The question is, will DTG flight sim be available apart from their own store or steam?

We will see how long it takes for Ready For Take Off to either be cancelled or have a version 2. But think about it, why would Aerosoft aim R for T at steam gamers by selling it on steam if its not aimed at them? Makes no sense. Residual sales? You can think that all you want, Steam is the major platform today and to gain sales success there is a real triumph - the opposite is also true. 

 We as consumers are constantly comparing features, prices, and several other things, so what are you talking about I cant compare, yes I can, and I do. FSX is still for sale for a good reason. Yes some go with all flight sims no matter what. But when a flight sim project wallows in a lack of basic (standard) features it will be compared to a flight sim that does not lack in basic features.

Please be fair when you say XP11 is only 3 weeks old- there has not been that much change since it was available for purchase much longer than 3 weeks ago.

And here we go again, "if you know so much why don't you ####" the same old phrase thrown around; as if you never had an idea for anybody else to ponder. Going with a fad phrase indicates to me that you don't really want to communicate with me. I do care about your position and the points that you make, do you care about mine? 

[pracines 823]

4 hours ago, Paraffin said:

I'm just going to toss this out here, as a reminder that there actually is a "casual "market out there.

I think most people would consider X-Plane a serious flight sim, aimed at the hardcore user. Or rather, it's something like a personal flight sim developed by an aviation geek CEO who flies in real life, and drives development based on what he's interested in, which puts a fairly "hardcore" tilt on things.

Regardless of that orientation, Laminar has been compiling user data for years through internal data links to the program. Look at these statistics for X-Plane 10 reported in January of this year (version 11 was still in beta, so I'm not including that data):

Primary Flight Controls Type:

Yoke - 25%
Joystick - 23%
Unknown - 18%
Mouse - 31%
Gamepad - 3%

So 31% of X-Plane users are flying with a mouse! Think about that. I suspect most of those users are people who buy the program and don't stick with it for long, but a sale is a sale.

Here's another statistic -- 38% of all flights in XP10 were being flown with the default aircraft provided in the sim, not add-ons!

That's astounding, considering that the default XP10 aircraft weren't that great (XP11 raised the bar considerably with the new default fleet). I don't know if similar statistics are available for FSX through internal reporting, but DTG may have access to that via the Steam version. It wouldn't surprise me if the statistcs for all FSX users -- not just the Avsim community -- were in the same ballpark.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that DTG should make a casual or beginner-oriented flight sim. Like probably everyone else on Avsim, I'm hoping that whatever they're doing lives up to the "next generation flight sim" phrase they used in earlier promotions. But it might make commercial sense to start small, with a sim that looks fairly basic on the surface, with a limited hanger of planes to fly, but with the deep foundation to grow into something larger for the hardcore community. I'm keeping my expectations tamped down to something along those lines.

Excellent points Paraffin.

I can agree that there is a casual market out there. I would also agree that many veteran flight simmers go "casual" on occasion. Its not every day I take 2 hours just to plan a North Atlantic crossing in my 777, there times I take the A36 for a VFR hop - although I always load real weather I don't always plot a course. It is wonderful that we can do either with what we have available to us today.

When a developer makes a new flight sim that would limit us flight simmers to "casual" only, we simply ignore it. And this is the disaster for DTG I'm trying to help them prevent, one disaster was enough. 

[Murmur 3,941]

You seem to think that everyone uses flight simulators like you. Typical of the common self-proclaimed "serious simmer". Not even worth replying to. Have fun! :D

[Guest]

1 hour ago, pracines said:

The question is, will DTG flight sim be available apart from their own store or steam?

We will see how long it takes for Ready For Take Off to either be cancelled or have a version 2. But think about it, why would Aerosoft aim R for T at steam gamers by selling it on steam if its not aimed at them? Makes no sense. Residual sales? You can think that all you want, Steam is the major platform today and to gain sales success there is a real triumph - the opposite is also true. 

 We as consumers are constantly comparing features, prices, and several other things, so what are you talking about I cant compare, yes I can, and I do. FSX is still for sale for a good reason. Yes some go with all flight sims no matter what. But when a flight sim project wallows in a lack of basic (standard) features it will be compared to a flight sim that does not lack in basic features.

Please be fair when you say XP11 is only 3 weeks old- there has not been that much change since it was available for purchase much longer than 3 weeks ago.

And here we go again, "if you know so much why don't you ####" the same old phrase thrown around; as if you never had an idea for anybody else to ponder. Going with a fad phrase indicates to me that you don't really want to communicate with me. I do care about your position and the points that you make, do you care about mine? 

Well, you started giving DTG unwanted advice at a point in time when it really doesn't matter any more, because they have already made a choice on how to approach their flight sim. That did come across as a bit know-it-all, which is why I responded in the "if-you-know-so-much"-manner. We established that, let's indeed move on.

What I didn't like about your post is how you seemed to talk down the other sims in the process and providing dubious evidence for doing so. Again: Aerosoft have other distribution channels for their products in place, Steam is only one of them. (Ask them on their forums if you want to know more, they are quite open about the way they conduct business.) Of course, I do not know, if R for T is succesful on those, because I didn't follow the product, which personally doesn't interest me, closely.

With XP11 it is quite odd to compare it's figures to FSX:SE, because FSX:SE has been sold for over two years now of for very low prices. Naturally, there will be more people playing it. I wouldn't expect that to change in the foreseeable future.

And then you make the usual mistake to compare P3D with addons with XP11 without addons. P3D without addons lacks terribly in ATC, looks way worse out of the box in all aspects, has worse default planes, and so on. A fully fledged P3D is arguably better for certain aspects of simming than a fully fledged out XP11, but that depends on addons, not on the sim itself.

[n4gix 4,947]

Folks, when replying to a post - especially a L O N G post - please delete all but the salient sentences to which you wish to reply!

Quoting a WALL OF TEXT and then adding yet another WALL OF TEXT is really quite too much...

[pracines 823]

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

You seem to think that everyone uses flight simulators like you. Typical of the common self-proclaimed "serious simmer". Not even worth replying to. Have fun! :D

Then why did you reply? tripping over ones own thoughts, you fell down a stairway! ROFL   

[hs118 707]

Would like to see the FlightSim developer credentials of the OP. Otherwise, he's just a whiny purchaser with no perspective on the business of FlightSim.

[Murmur 3,941]

18 minutes ago, Henry Street said:

Would like to see the FlightSim developer credentials of the OP. Otherwise, he's just a whiny purchaser with no perspective on the business of FlightSim.

The second you wrote.

[pracines 823]

1 hour ago, domae001 said:

Well, blah blah blah -- since a WALL OF TEXT is frowned upon -  I delete it  LOL

I did not post my thoughts for anybody to like what I had to say. There are many times here when I don't like what somebody says, but I don't go looking for arguments/fights, I leave them to their ideas, and don't even reply. If I think I need to correct some facts, then I may but not with the intention of arguing or bickering. 

I posted my thoughts to expose the errors of the (distant to very recent) past, and to get a little more insight as to what we can expect from DTG.... my mission was accomplished.

I did not compare any products unfairly. 

I would say more to prove that I read everything you said out of respect for you, but there is no sense making moderators mad.

 

[pracines 823]

20 minutes ago, Henry Street said:

Would like to see the FlightSim developer credentials of the OP. Otherwise, he's just a whiny purchaser with no perspective on the business of FlightSim.

awe little henry is all mad

[RichieFly 725]

OK. This is now just a classic trolling example.

Could a mod lock this thread? Or maybe remove my internet browser? It's hard not to watch a disaster unfold.

[hs118 707]

Good luck Paul, got to be in dominate and in control. How bout those creds, anyway?

[HiFlyer 9,343]

[hs118 707]

Sometimes its about standing up to bully when the developers have to be nice.

[188AHC 2,138]

The meat of this topic is an embarrassment to DTG and it's followers . Aimee and Cryss, thank you for your input and we look forward to any thing further you have to offer about the development of your upcoming simulator.  I for one am looking forward to what you have to offer.