They said it couldn't be done

[HiFlyer 9,333]

On 5/2/2017 at 3:38 PM, n4gix said:

^^^^ This. Everything else is a moot point!

Bet the stewardesses have an emergency key hidden somewhere.....

[BillCusick 75]

15 hours ago, HiFlyer said:

Bet the stewardesses have an emergency key hidden somewhere.....

I often wonder what an Air Marshall would do under those circumstances - do they practice on P3d ?

Regards

Bill

[warbirds 555]

In my experience,,maybe. 

Years ago I had a good buddy that ran a small grass strip airport. He had a few planes hangar'd there and there was also a small house we used to store rc planes we flew at this field. 

I was into flightsims very heavy at that time and thought it would be easy to jump into a small plane and take to the air. Well I got my wish one day when my buddy fired up his 150 and told me to get into the left seat. I was a bit taken back but got in and put on the headphones. 

My buddy was one of the best pilots I ever knew so I was confident he would guide me and keep me out of trouble - wrong - he seemed to have a bit too much confidence in my sim training and proceeded to let me work things out for myself. 

He would make some rude comments at times (from Arkansas and always told me what he thought no matter what). So off we go as I advanced the throttle and taxied out to the end of that grass strip, wandering here and there while getting used to the rudder pedals. I got to the end of the strip and took a deep breath and gave it full throttle.

I was all over that narrow grass strip but he remained calm and did not say or do anything at first but half way down the strip he yelled in my ear phones " pull that damned yoke back boy you want to break my nose gear?" He then  proceeded to pull the yoke all the way back into my lap thus keeping his nose wheel off the turf. 

I was really afraid of a stall in that position so when airborne I pushed the yoke forward to even us out and he again yelled at me in that southern drawl,,"she will climb, let her"..

 Once in the air I found that I was fighting the plane trying to keep from bouncing  up and down and slipping a yawing (something you don't get or feel in the sim) and he calmly stated that I should let the plane fly and not fight it. I did get used to it after a bit, finding the horizon spot to stay level and letting the plane slip and yaw and bounce as it wanted in that hot Iowa summer air.

He continued to drawl out some pointed remarks at times such as when I did my first steep turn. It was odd to me to see the degree of tilt he wanted and I was timid on the rudders so he exclaimed "you lazy? use those rudder pedals !" And so it went with his infrequent and usually caustic remarks as we flew over those Iowa cornfields and dirt roads.

We flew from Marion Iowa to the Illinois boarder where he told me to land at a small airport up ahead with a narrow concrete runway. I  have never landed a real plane and he did not really help but did make a few throttle adjustments along the glide path. He seemed to have much more confidence in my ability than I did but we did land and it was not too bad a landing at all,,at least I thought so.

We went into the small FOB and had soft drink and the man inside knew my buddy from previous landings and started to kid him about the landing we just made saying "what was all that tire screeching about?" My buddy gave me a glare and didn't say a word.

All that summer I got to fly that 150 and my buddy talked me through some scary landings,,one was  25 mph cross wind landing and another was at night after he turned the runway lights off. To this day I am not sure why he pushed me to the limit, maybe just to add a bit of excitement to his life or maybe that we both were very competitive in our RC flying. No matter the reason it was one summer I will always cherish and one summer where I found sim flying is not even close to really putting your butt in that left seat. 

[HighBypass 2,339]

Great story Paul! You lucky dog, you! 

[warbirds 555]

Thanks, it was a great summer and one I will always remember.

[Captain Kevin 586]

I've been trying to stay out of threads like this because the reality is that until you experience it yourself, you won't know for sure if you can do it or not. Sure, I may have flown the PMDG Boeing 747-400 for the last few years and I might be able to work the systems, but would I be able to land an actual Boeing 747-400 if the situation were to arise? I'd like to think so, but when you consider the human factor, the reality is that I wouldn't know for sure....until today.

Earlier today, my friend and I went flying. Prior to departure, we had checked the weather. Weather seemed fine, and he told me the winds shouldn't be too bad. Do our pre-flight inspection, I get in the Captain's seat, taxi out, and take off. I have to say, the take-off was rather terrifying because not only did I not know what to expect, it was the opposite of what I was expecting. The winds were actually the complete opposite of what he said they would be, and I was concerned about stalling the plane and ending up in the ground. The winds were fine once we got over the Long Island Sound, but once we got back over land again, we hit more turbulence.

After we grabbed lunch, we got back out, did the pre-flight inspection, and I got back in the Captain's seat for departure. The take-off wasn't as terrifying the second time around, but then again, I think by that point, I had an idea of what to expect. We hit some turbulence, which I was expecting to last until we got back over the Long Island Sound. Once we got near Long Island, I was expecting the turbulence, so it wasn't nearly as terrifying.

So back to the original question. Would I be able to land an actual Boeing 747-400 if the situation were to arise. I think I'd have to fly it around to get a feel for it first before I even attempt to land it. Even then, I still wouldn't know for sure. Of course, if I was the only one who was able to fly it, I guess I wouldn't have much of a choice, but to try.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Captain Kevin

[KenG 492]

I hope people who decide to take this on as a sort of discovery or introductory flight at least make sure to do it with a qualified and current CFI. As good as your buddy Private or Commerical Pilot may be, do you really want to put your life in the hands of someone not trained to do this? Even under the best of circumstances (actual student pilots with an Instructor in the right seat), I have seen aircraft come back damaged.

Personally, I wouldn't do it in the case of a simmer wanting to prove something. They have a dangerous attitude toward aviation in general in their belief that formal training is not necessary and I will not reinforce such nonsense.

If you want to trade virtual wings for real wings, I fully support you and will do what's possible to help these types of people. If you are just looking for your next adrenaline fix, I have better things to do.

[FDEdev 955]

11 hours ago, Captain Kevin said:

Would I be able to land an actual Boeing 747-400 if the situation were to arise. I think I'd have to fly it around to get a feel for it first before I even attempt to land it. 

Sorry, but that's complete nonsense. You might have a chance if the AP stays engaged and you could set the plane up for an autoland, but 'flying around' manually will make the 747 (and almost every other plane) go away from you in no time.

I still remember when I transitioned from the Dash8 to the CRJ after well over 1000hrs and I was very surprised about the differences and how difficult this thing was to fly.

Especially the higher approach speed and the related problems were a real eye opener. 

 

[Captain Kevin 586]

1 hour ago, KenG said:

I hope people who decide to take this on as a sort of discovery or introductory flight at least make sure to do it with a qualified and current CFI. As good as your buddy Private or Commerical Pilot may be, do you really want to put your life in the hands of someone not trained to do this? Even under the best of circumstances (actual student pilots with an Instructor in the right seat), I have seen aircraft come back damaged.

Fortunately, my friend is a qualified and current CFI, having just completed a flight with another student before we went up.

53 minutes ago, J35OE said:

Sorry, but that's complete nonsense. You might have a chance if the AP stays engaged and you could set the plane up for an autoland, but 'flying around' manually will make the 747 (and almost every other plane) go away from you in no time.

I still remember when I transitioned from the Dash8 to the CRJ after well over 1000hrs and I was very surprised about the differences and how difficult this thing was to fly.

Especially the higher approach speed and the related problems were a real eye opener. 

Of course, the key word being think. I certainly wouldn't know for sure.

[Guevorkyan 69]

I'm really not comfortable with the established thought here that a Sunday ride in a C150 is proof of anything. Those airplanes are designed to be flown by students with the help of a CFI, and yet you can find yourself in dangerous situations starting from the pre-flight check.

Every airplane flies differently (even same models), and pilots have to be checked by a CFI before going solo if it's the first time for them in that airplane; always talking about single engine pistons.

If we talk about twin pistons, that's a whole new game, vertical and longitudinal axis stability react differently with single-engine ops. To my knowledge, no addon has ever properly simulated engine-out dynamics. It's no fun IRL, really. Plus, the constant management of differential throttle and prop levers to keep even thrust and (more importantly) sync noise. 

Fast forward to single engine turboprops. Not really my area, I haven't flown one IRL so I cannot comment. But I can say that complexity is there, and everything happens fast (as everything in aviation). 

Twin engine turboporps, well...I have several hours of Metro II in my back. It's a hard plane to fly, lots of hustle and the power upside is non existent (constantly underpowered), takes off looong and lands fast. Real life pilots have a lot of problems operating the Metro, especially trying to engage the Betas during landing roll out. And good luck if those Betas enter uneven at 100kt in the tricycle that is now the airplane during the landing roll. Lots of fast thinking and muscle memory. You happen to own razbam's metro? Good luck in the real thing. The same applies to the Beechs, operating the levers is not that straight forward as implied in the sim, the flight dynamics are real and every flight is very different (temperature? winds? weights? asphalt or grass?

I can't comment on light jet airplanes, I couldn't fly a Lear 25 because I'm 6´7 feet tall. Cannot comment on bigger jets by own experience either, but I can certainly extrapolate my own experience. If you look in yt for cockpit manual landings, you will see a lot of joke movement (up up, down, left, hard right, left up, down, down, pitch trim up, pitch down, while the airplane is stiff stable. And every bit of those inputs are necessary. You do that in the sim and the approach is completely unstable because the controls are heavily overpowered even with the FBW addons.

The most important thing though, is the tridimentionality of it all. It's a very different perspective from the sim, and the 150 doesn't feel like the BE90, and the BE90 doesn't feel like the GLF4, and the GLF doesn't feel like the 767. Add, the real dynamics, several more environment factors, and presto. 

 

[FDEdev 955]

1 hour ago, Captain Kevin said:

1.Fortunately, my friend is a qualified and current CFI, having just completed a flight with another student before we went up.

2.I certainly wouldn't know for sure.

1. Did you know that accidents with planes like the C152 happen more often if there's a CFI and a student on board than if the student is flying without FI?

2. I know that you wouldn't have a chance, but of course by assuming that it might be possible, I guess that flying FSX/P3D etc. is more motivating :) 

 

@Guevorkyan

I was surprised about the Metro III as I heard a lot of bad stories about it. But in fact I did like it...more than the Dash8.

The Metro II with the booster rocket, now THAT was a plane!

Edited May 22, 2017 by J35OE

[Captain Kevin 586]

1 hour ago, Guevorkyan said:

I'm really not comfortable with the established thought here that a Sunday ride in a C150 is proof of anything. Those airplanes are designed to be flown by students with the help of a CFI, and yet you can find yourself in dangerous situations starting from the pre-flight check.

I certainly wasn't trying to prove anything at all. If anything, the whole point was that flying the real thing is far different from doing it in the simulator.

7 minutes ago, J35OE said:

1. Did you know that accidents with planes like the C152 happen more often if there's a CFI and a student on board than if the student is flying without FI?

Negative, I wasn't aware of that, as that wouldn't have been the first thing to come to mind when I flew the plane. First thing that comes to mind, of course, is to fly the plane. So what are you trying to say, I shouldn't fly at all?

[Guevorkyan 69]

13 minutes ago, J35OE said:

@Guevorkyan

I was surprised about the Metro III as I heard a lot of bad stories about it. But in fact I did like it...more than the Dash8.

The Metro II with the booster rocket, now THAT was a plane!

Haven't flown the III, but I think they somewhat sorted the engine power to weight ratio in that one pretty well.

My SA226 TC didn't have the JATO unfortunately, but it indeed had AWI. That felt like afterburner to us!

EDIT: The Metro was the most fun I've ever had in an airplane, we would fly for 5 hours straight without a working AP and the medic strolling fore and aft the whole flight, driving the pitch trim alarm and us insane.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Guevorkyan

[JB3DG 225]

On ‎2017‎/‎05‎/‎22 at 1:37 PM, KenG said:

I hope people who decide to take this on as a sort of discovery or introductory flight at least make sure to do it with a qualified and current CFI. As good as your buddy Private or Commerical Pilot may be, do you really want to put your life in the hands of someone not trained to do this? Even under the best of circumstances (actual student pilots with an Instructor in the right seat), I have seen aircraft come back damaged.

Personally, I wouldn't do it in the case of a simmer wanting to prove something. They have a dangerous attitude toward aviation in general in their belief that formal training is not necessary and I will not reinforce such nonsense.

It certainly does take considerable experience and training to know when to intervene and when not to intervene.

In my case, I have both sim experience but have also been blessed by some God-given natural talent for flying which my instructor credits more than my sim experience. He said the only real substitute for real flying is a level D simulator and even then there are still limits. The flight simulator only becomes a useful training aid once you have some experience in the real world to appreciate the differences and learn how to focus on the areas that you need to improve on. Without that connection, you are groping in the dark and fooling yourself as to how well you think you fly.

And as for when to intervene or not, my instructor did allow me to make one almost deadly mistake to help change my attitude (I was rather cocky inside while covering over the outside with a false humility which he easily saw through), but he handled it perfectly, both minimizing the risks and teaching the lesson at the same time. I have shared the experience here before of how I dropped full flaps on downwind and nearly stalled in an aircraft known to spin easily and take several thousand feet to recover due to its small tail and short fuselage with long wings. He gave the warning in time to prevent the stall and his commands afterwards got us down quickly and reasonably safely despite my high stress levels.

[warbirds 555]

Well, as I pointed out in my post, if anyone has read it, I was able to fly a 150 from takeoff to landing with minimum input from my friend but I also realize how dangerous and crazy it was and that it could have tuned out much differently. 

I also am not sure how much my past sim flying or rc flying helped because the real deal is so very much different from either of those. Foolhardy or not I would do it again in  a heartbeat and consider it one of the best experiences of my life.