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rsrandazzo

[07MAY17] The sorts of behaviors that cause me concern...

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Rob

 

Thanks for your honesty and courage in posting this info, i have no interest in dovetails flightsim if they are going to do the wrong thing by developers and will always support pmdg by buying your superb products direct,kudos to you guys simply amazing group of people creating an outstanding product

 

Wayne

 

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Wayne such

Asus Hero Z690, Galax 3080 TI, I712700K, Kraken x72 CPU Cooled, 64 GIGS Corsair DDR5, 32 Inch 4K 

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Hi Robert,

Many thanks for your thought-provoking post. I am totally with you in believing that open competition is the only solution that will guarantee the health of our hobby.

Quote

There are many economic reasons why this will signal the beginning of a decline in product quality and product differentiation, and I can certainly go into that in detail in another thread if anyone is actually interested in the process

I would be very interested to read your further comments.

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Cheers, Richard

Intel Core i7-7700K @ 4.2 GHz, 16 GB memory, 1 TB SSD, GTX 1080 Ti, 28" 4K display

Win10-64, P3Dv5, PMDG 748 & 777, Milviz KA350i, ASP3D, vPilot, Navigraph, PFPX, ChasePlane, Orbx 

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To be honest, i don't see a big deal out of it.
I'll try to explain:

While it's surely true that taking out the 65% of the earning from Steam sales is indeed a lot, it's also true that the whole Steam environment is a market in which PMDG right now barely goes already.
Old flight simmers, all of us, buy PMDG aircrafts from the PMDG site. Those earnings are not going away as long as the user base is still interested in PMDG aicrafts (and i think it is?). But by going to Steam, which i remind you, has of late reached 13 MILLIONS of ACTIVE users daily, you would expand your user base and while the earnings would indeed be lower, those would be earnings you woudn't otherwise get.

I think this model of working has been successful especially in regard of Train Simulator, which allows to buy DLCs from Steam but nothing stops you from selling the same addons elsewhere. This is the model proposed to PMDG as well as far as i know.

The only other difference i know about is that on Train Sims, there are also sales from time to time. And DTG as far as i know is the one deciding what to put on sales, and not the original developers of the addon. 

 

In conclusion, i think entering the Steam market (which is the one that actually saved PC gaming, no doubt about that), can only be beneficial. Especially since DTG is still giving you the chance of selling your product both on it (getting in touch with a new userbase) and on your old channel.

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Chock 1.1: "The only thing that whines louder than a jet engine is a flight simmer."

 

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6 minutes ago, france89 said:

To be honest, i don't see a big deal out of it.
I'll try to explain:

While it's surely true that taking out the 65% of the earning from Steam sales is indeed a lot, it's also true that the whole Steam environment is a market in which PMDG right now barely goes already.
Old flight simmers, all of us, buy PMDG aircrafts from the PMDG site. Those earnings are not going away as long as the user base is still interested in PMDG aicrafts (and i think it is?). But by going to Steam, which i remind you, has of late reached 13 MILLIONS of ACTIVE users daily, you would expand your user base and while the earnings would indeed be lower, those would be earnings you woudn't otherwise get.

I think this model of working has been successful especially in regard of Train Simulator, which allows to buy DLCs from Steam but nothing stops you from selling the same addons elsewhere. This is the model proposed to PMDG as well as far as i know.

The only other difference i know about is that on Train Sims, there are also sales from time to time. And DTG as far as i know is the one deciding what to put on sales, and not the original developers of the addon. 

 

In conclusion, i think entering the Steam market (which is the one that actually saved PC gaming, no doubt about that), can only be beneficial. Especially since DTG is still giving you the chance of selling your product both on it (getting in touch with a new userbase) and on your old channel.

Developing a train for Train Sims and developing highly complex aircraft are 2 vastly different things. The cost of development for the latter is far beyond what it takes to make a train simulation.

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Jonathan "FRAG" Bleeker

Formerly known here as "Narutokun"

 

If I speak for my company without permission the boss will nail me down. So unless otherwise specified...Im just a regular simmer who expresses his personal opinion

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10 minutes ago, Narutokun said:

Developing a train for Train Sims and developing highly complex aircraft are 2 vastly different things. The cost of development for the latter is far beyond what it takes to make a train simulation.

Do you have the numbers for both DTG investment and PMDG's one?

That is yet another reason, in my view, to maximize the earnings. Especially since, and this is the important part, PMDG woudn't normally "catch" the playerbase passing by Steam.

Besides, didn't other FSX addon developers, known for their products and their investment into supporting the platform, made a deal with DTG to sell their addons on Steam as DLCS?

http://store.steampowered.com/dlc/314160

Carenado, Aerosoft, Milviz, Orbx, REX, Feelthere, PILOT'S,  they are ALL on Steam.

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Chock 1.1: "The only thing that whines louder than a jet engine is a flight simmer."

 

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I have been away from flight sim for some time about 2years more important thing got in the way, but have just got back in through FSX:SE the boxed version is packed away with others since 1998 used PMDG product`s in fs9, now retired I hope to enjoy my hobby again and I myself put this to Cryys on FSW forum about there marketing policy as I feel it will rob us of some of the best add-ons  in the market and will put me off FSW. My plan is to purchase PMDG 747-400 but for which platform that`s why I'm waiting to see which way the wind blows with 64bit, as I feel that`s the future and without developers like PMDG in flight simulator it would not have grown to what we enjoy today.

Ray Fry.   


 

Raymond Fry.

PMDG_Banner_747_Enthusiast.jpg

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1 hour ago, france89 said:

Do you have the numbers for both DTG investment and PMDG's one?

That is yet another reason, in my view, to maximize the earnings. Especially since, and this is the important part, PMDG woudn't normally "catch" the playerbase passing by Steam.

Besides, didn't other FSX addon developers, known for their products and their investment into supporting the platform, made a deal with DTG to sell their addons on Steam as DLCS?

http://store.steampowered.com/dlc/314160

Carenado, Aerosoft, Milviz, Orbx, REX, Feelthere, PILOT'S,  they are ALL on Steam.

I am not going to give out numbers as those are proprietary info but I do work for Milviz and if you take a look at the Milviz products on steam you will find there are only 2 which have been out for years. Colin (avsim user Milviz) has spoken out in the DTG thread as well about his concerns regarding DTG's policies. Milviz isn't about to just bend the knee on this because if we did, we would be driven out of business very quickly. Addon development, especially for our high end products like the KingAir (several years in development) and others that have been released or will be released soon have very narrow profit margins because the developers do have to eat. And most of those devs you list (with the exception of Milviz) have had their products out for years and already received the initial majority of sales and don't operate under the same business model required for ultra high end aircraft, or don't even deal with the same challenges involved in aircraft simulation (scenery and weather addons are a different kettle of fish).

Again, PMDG and other devs who are expressing concerns have very good reasons for doing so, reasons that an outsider to the development industry cannot appreciate.

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Jonathan "FRAG" Bleeker

Formerly known here as "Narutokun"

 

If I speak for my company without permission the boss will nail me down. So unless otherwise specified...Im just a regular simmer who expresses his personal opinion

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Long story short, we can expect to not see PMDG products in this new DTG flight sum. GOT it!


FAA: ATP-ME

Matt kubanda

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10 minutes ago, ahsmatt7 said:

Long story short, we can expect to not see PMDG products in this new DTG flight sum. GOT it!

 

Not quite what Rob said. He said there is too much uncertainty now to say for certain if they will.


Jonathan "FRAG" Bleeker

Formerly known here as "Narutokun"

 

If I speak for my company without permission the boss will nail me down. So unless otherwise specified...Im just a regular simmer who expresses his personal opinion

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I wonder what the difference is between you (meaning PMDG, not you personally), and another huge player like ORBX, who not only seems to have teamed up quite well but also have their first add-on coming but next month...

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1 minute ago, ifixrjs said:

Robert,

Dovetails plans for the community are absolutely clear, they plan to turn FSW into train sim, it's their business model.  Very little innovation and contribution to the community while lining their pockets with our cash.  I personally will not take part of this and should this be their model I will not support it in anyway.

That is why I emphatically beseech you, now is the time to jump into X-Plane.  Give the XP community a proper NGX and 777.  Charge them a reasonable rate without lame excuse of "it's not an entertainment platform" that you used on p3d.  I love the work PMDG does, I have used your products for years.  PMDG and yourself get an unfair amount of criticism however at times some of it is deserved.

It's time to whiled the power your guys hold.  You know that PMDG is the biggest influence in the industry, bigger than DTG.  Cut their heart out by making an outspoken announcement of your full support for XP and a roadmap there in.  If you do this, the entire industry will shift. Everyone and I mean everyone will follow.

Flight sim is at a crucial point in its history and we have a full fledged format war coming out way, this is beta vs VHS all over, only this time if DTG wins, we all lose.  Fight the good fight, be a leader like you guys always have.  XP is the future of flight sim.

I'll end this with saying a few comments on P4D (what I call p3dv4).  I have to be honest here, I'm honestly surprised at the amount of support your have given this platform considering that Lockheed could quite literally pull the plug on their platform at any time in any number of ways leaving our industry in total chaos.  LM does not need p3d.  LM does not care about consumer users.  The whole reason they don't offer an entertainment platform is because they don't want to support it.  Their OK with forum support, which is mostly community handled, but the last thing they want is a large volume of people to issue out help tickets to.  I have always had the feeling that p3d is a pet project of some LM exec, and the day that guy goes it's over.  Either by pulling the product entirely or simply by pricing the licenses out of the market.

Considering all that above, XP is the clear answer for our community to move forward. With XP everybody wins; The developers, the customers, everybody.

 

Sure, there you just have the monopoly of the org...please...

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Mr. Randazzo!

Your frustration is obvious and it is for moments like these, that sages of the past left us with some muses and thoughts, to help us weather them.

I want to remind you of them, so that your forest and your trees become more aligned.

They said, amongst many others:

"Only knowing where you come from, will you be able to know where you are going"

"If you build it, they will come"

"Steady as she goes"

"Everything looks different, in the light of a new day"

"If you believe in yourself, everybody will believe you"

Etc. etc.

The universe of flight simulation, is littered with the remnants of so many products and, somehow, yours is still out there with a very large, enthusiastic and happy following.

So, just keep doing what you are doing, it appears to be working. Take your family out for a Sunday dinner and tomorrow, Monday, get back to work on the DC-6, the B747-8 and whatever else you have up your sleeve.

Thousands are waiting for them.

Many regards,
Roberto

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Roberto Stopnicki

Toronto, Canada

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As Austin shows little interest in making XPX a viable commercial airline sim environment, it is not a good option for us to fly PMDG products.  Period.

As well, steam/DTG 65% of the take is criminally outrageous.

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3 hours ago, ifixrjs said:

What is this 65% take? Who takes it?

Steam by itself takes 30%. DTG takes an extra 30+% as I understand it for FSX SE DLC via steam. Right now with FSX SE it is not so much an issue because developers can choose not to sell at all on steam or to put it on steam only long after the initial bulk of sales has occurred. But if DTG locks devs in to going on Steam from day 1.....Notwithstanding they can sell on their own sites it still will have some negative consequences.


Jonathan "FRAG" Bleeker

Formerly known here as "Narutokun"

 

If I speak for my company without permission the boss will nail me down. So unless otherwise specified...Im just a regular simmer who expresses his personal opinion

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27 minutes ago, ifixrjs said:

What is this 65% take? Who takes it?

It sounds like it's split between steam and dovetail.


FAA: ATP-ME

Matt kubanda

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