[07MAY17] The sorts of behaviors that cause me concern...

[Lon Duncombe 83]

If we can all stop flaming opposing software for a moment, let's remember Robert's other concern - the early release of alpha or beta software. I have flown PMDGs QOTS V3 in p3dV3 for a couple of months now, without a problem.  The initial cost was high, but factor that over the hours of enjoyment since purchase and the "wow" per hour price is very low.  Not only is this product (in my experience) totally stable, I know there will be updates coming which will enhance the product.  Integrity +quality= PMDG.  

Compare that to the other half baked products that are released, potential havoc wreakers when they interact with other half baked products and/or the sim itself. One has no idea which is at fault when the sim self-destrtucts, and the developers have the out of invoking the "Well, the product isn't finished yet" escape clause.  The pressure to actually finish the product also lessens as the money starts coming in.  I have one add on in particular which has been in beta well over a year, with known flaws since day one still apparent. The updates have slowed to a trickle before finally ceasing altogether the past few months.  My bad for getting sucked in.

One further gripe - if I never read "Another fine release from XYZ company which deserves a place in your hanger, yada yada yada" review about a piece of garbage that probably deserves  a place in software oblivion, not in your sim,  it won't be soon enough.  Having a retailer critique their own product is like having Volkwagen tell us what a fine product they sell, one or two minor omission quirks notwithstanding.

Anyway, enough already.  Thank you for allowing me to vent.  I'm off to fly my PMDG Polar Star 747-400 on an overnight trip from LGAV to CYXY.  I know I can leave P3D running all night, and tomorrow morning it will be paused at TOD, waiting for me to land my bird.  Hopefully that pesky engine one bleed valve won't malfunction again :)

Lon Duncombe    

 

[serviceceiling 135]

Given Dovetail's last Train Sims and the failure that was Flightschool, I  have very little hope regarding this "Sim" - if you can even call it that. I fear it will be a semi-sim for the broad masses who expect state of the art visuals, like in today's latest video game titles, and would like to get into flying. From the footage I've seen FSW comes with aircraft from a well known GA aircraft developer. Those addons are solid but not very accurate or groundbraking. Compared to the stock FSX and partially P3D stuff, however, they are just fine. The UI that can be seen in the official FSW video is rather simplified and strongly reminds me of DTG's latest train sim (Train Sim World), which is visually stunning but horrible in every other aspect.  The reviews and comments on steam speak for themselves. The game/sim is also highly unfinished, which will most likely be the case with the early access of Fight Sim World. 

However, all of this is fine as long as they keep developing and improving this new platform until it reaches a stable and workable state, which is always the case with new sims or software (P3D, Xplane, PMDG Products and their Sevice Packs). What I don't understand, is how DTG could legally prevent 3rd party developers from selling their products from their own stores? To me this just sounds like greedy CEO's writing contracts with their greasy fingers. Should this be the case then I don't see any quality addons ever coming to this new platfrom.

In that regard I currently see the next versions of P3D and Xplane become the next platforms for everyone to work with. Mostly the former of the two, since it is developed by one of the biggest aviation companies and holds the most potential. FSX:SE might still remain as an "older" alternative until 3rd party software runs ahead and becomes uncompatible. 

[SolRayz 392]

Honestly, who cares about FSX and DT. P3D is the platform of the future as long as LM allows it. 

[barrel_owl 304]

2 hours ago, Narutokun said:

Steam by itself takes 30%. DTG takes an extra 30+% as I understand it for FSX SE DLC via steam. Right now with FSX SE it is not so much an issue because developers can choose not to sell at all on steam or to put it on steam only long after the initial bulk of sales has occurred. But if DTG locks devs in to going on Steam from day 1.....

DTG is not locking anything: neither freeware nor payware. I have lost the count of all the times that Aimée and other DTG representatives made this crystal clear in other threads.
Which part of "Developers can sell their products through their own sales channels, as long as they also sell through Steam" is not clear? It is already happening with DCS titles, it is already happening with a long list of FSX Steam titles from a long list of flight sim developers, it is already happening with thousands of gaming titles.

If I want to buy the King Air 350i directly from Milviz or the PMDG 777 directly from PMDG, nothing and nobody is going to stop me from doing that. Except that Milviz and PMDG will decide not to develop for FSW at all, which is obviously their own business decision.

Filippo Nesi

[Raven9000 272]

3 hours ago, tgcbraun said:

Of course you can buy it outside of the org. The user above surely have no clue what he is talking about.

By rejecting Steam, DT AND X-Plane 11, it seems to me that PMDG is locking itself in a corner here. I think any business that operates selling digital goods should be nimble, evolve and go where the consumers are. It seems that PMDG still think it is 1998.

Things have changes, distribution methods have changed. As a Steam user, I don´t think twice before buying an add-on through Steam, instead of having to register and login in some developers website. With Steam I get safety, convenience and automatic updates.

And, YES, I can also ask for a refund if I feel that the product is not worth what I paid! That should be standard nowadays. I think that might be a big concern for old-school FS developers.

I really do hope that Robert and the others at PMDG realize these new trends (that include XP11), before its too late.

Please show me where you can buy the good airplane add-ons for XP besides carenado/alabeo and x-aviation, please

[JB3DG 225]

13 minutes ago, barrel_owl said:

DTG is not locking anything: neither freeware nor payware. I have lost the count of all the times that Aimée and other DTG representatives made this crystal clear in other threads.
Which part of "Developers can sell their products through their own sales channels, as long as they also sell through Steam" is not clear? It is already happening with DCS titles, it is already happening with a long list of FSX Steam titles from a long list of flight sim developers, it is already happening with thousands of gaming titles.

If I want to buy the King Air 350i directly from Milviz or the PMDG 777 directly from PMDG, nothing and nobody is going to stop me from doing that. Except that Milviz and PMDG will decide not to develop for FSW at all, which is obviously their own business decision.

Filippo Nesi

I guess I came across a little unclear there. Post edited. I am talking specifically about us dev's wish not to go via Steam at all (read what I said earlier. I work for Milviz so I am not speaking ignorantly). I am aware that devs can sell through their own channels provided they sell through steam but again they have good reasons for not wanting to go that way.

[Raven9000 272]

2 hours ago, captain bligh said:

Having predicted that flight school would bomb long before it was released, i have now turned my head to DTG's latest product recently mentioned, which was supposed to be released last year if i recall correctly?

You have to understand dtg's mentality they have always referred to it as a "GAME" i do not buy games , I am only interested in buying a simulation, their last effort was also a "game" so if they do not wish to sell a simulation then you cannot expect the product to be anywhere near as good as FSX, P3D or X-plane . There are many indications from the short video that also indicate that this will be a game, look at the flight planner that they show! no-one in the real world or those that use current simulations would ever use a childs planner like that one, I am lead to believe that they are using the unreal engine 4 which is hopeless when it comes to flight dynamics and further proof that the in-coming product will be a game. Remember Flight??? that was a game, a poor one which everyone said would bomb and it did. The paying customer doesnt want a game they want as accurate a simulation as is feasable on our current equipment. Yes the rain running off the engine cowling looked great , but so does the rain in half a dozen road racing "GAMES" or Rally "GAMES"

So Captain RR i do not think you will have much to worry about , If I were you I would put my nose to the ground and concentrate on porting you excellent existing fleet over to XP11, because that IMHO is the future and i dont own it!! P3D we all know is going 64 bit, it should have been this 3 years ago instead they spent 3 years making a product that still suffers from many of the inherent problems of the past. So when they do finally release their 64 bit product (next Year???)  they will be 3 years or more behind the slowly improving Laminar , and in case you hadnt noticed more and more people are seeing and liking where laminar is going (i never thought I would ever say this!!) XP11 has finally a interface that works, that joe public can easily use, DTG will suffer the same teething problems as P3D but without the budget of L.M. so it will take longer than 3 years for that product to become useable, And finally I cannot see any simmer wanting to use a sim that doesnt have study level a/c in it so stick to your guns  DTG  have not the finance/ time or experience to create one them selves so they will have to make an approach to you and then you can create your own termes.

Hate to break it to you, but no matter how sophisticated it may be, you are, in fact, still playing a "GAME"...

[Boomer 1,619]

1 minute ago, Raven9000 said:

Hate to break it to you, but no matter how sophisticated it may be, you are, in fact, still playing a "GAME"...

Nope.

[Raven9000 272]

2 hours ago, katice said:

Their last effort, and the effort that is coming soon, is the same base as P3D is. Hell, the same addons will more likely work on it too, once updated to 64bit. 

Your delusion that P3D, FSX or X-Plane are somehow not games, and that you are somewhat "above" it is completely clouding the facts. 

+1... will never understand these people that think they are somwhat better than the rest for not playing "games".... boy is it gonna hit hard when he realizes he's been playing "pretend I'm a pilot"....

[Raven9000 272]

Just now, Boomer said:

Nope.

Sure you are, it's called: "make believe pilot"...  now if you choose not to accept it, that's your own personal issue...

[lanmancz 9]

10 minutes ago, Raven9000 said:

Please show me where you can buy the good airplane add-ons for XP besides carenado/alabeo and x-aviation, please

PMDG DC6 for exmaple ? The problem with XP is not that it would not be possible to buy from other places than the ORG store (which is a different company than LR btw) but rather general lack of high quality addons. Of course most devs sell either via ORG or XA simply because those are the biggest stores in XP community that everyone knows about. But no one is required to sell via those. Actually there are some addons who choose to sell in their own stores - like PMDG.

[Raven9000 272]

1 minute ago, lanmancz said:

PMDG DC6 for exmaple ? The problem with XP is not that it would not be possible to buy from other places than the ORG store (which is a different company than LR btw) but rather general lack of high quality addons. Of course most devs sell either via ORG or XA simply because those are the biggest stores in XP community that everyone knows about. But it's no one is required to sell via those. Actually there are some addons who choose to sell in their own stores - like PMDG.

Yep, and they don't sell at the org directly... with a fee exceptions that have them in both sites, it's either their own page for some (pmdg, xa for someof their stuff, etc) it's an either or basis. 

[lanmancz 9]

Well you have to sell them somewhere. The difference is that nobody is forcing anyone to use any particular store. And since XP is available via Steam as well some sell via Steam, but again, nobody is being forced to sell via Steam. It's all up to the devs. If they can handle the sales themselves it's their business. Which is as it should be.

[cimgrp501 30]

4 minutes ago, Raven9000 said:

+1... will never understand these people that think they are somwhat better than the rest for not playing "games".... boy is it gonna hit hard when he realizes he's been playing "pretend I'm a pilot"....

Even in business learning and development where I work there are clear distinctions between games, gamification and simulation.  It has nothing to do with anyone feeling "better" than someone else.  It has to do with widely accepted definitions and parameters, e.g.,  http://www.theknowledgeguru.com/games-vs-simulations-choosing-right-approach/  I respect your right to define a "game" however you wish, but Boomer has the right to follow well established and recognized distinctions as most of us choose to do.

 

[Raven9000 272]

Just now, arsenal82 said:

they are not blocking anything is not true.

train sim freeware is basically taken away from their respective authors - to become dtg property to be used as they pleased; very likely this will be also the case for fsw in case there will be an sdk.

you can ONLY sell products on steam at the moment with fsx se ONLY if dtg let you do so - very likely this will be the case for fsw too. They are not that friendly; read their eulas - full of treats and legalities.

if this is not blocking what is is it ???

What?? You are aware you can buy add-ons for FSX-SE pretty much in *any* flight sim store, right..?