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Guest Kingair315

Hand flying in FS9

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Guest christian

Thanks for this, Mark - I needed to hear that. I've been struggling with this dreaded logitech FF for 4 years now. Cost me a fortune. I guess it's about time to get a decent joystick (non FF).Christian

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It would be interesting to know what it would be like to fly a 767 for real from FL390 to landing at an airport by hand. Would the gimli glider have been like this? I hand fly the LDS767 a lot and it takes a lot of concentration to do this. A lot. Especially after having a beer. Doing everything else. IE radios, gear, flaps etc, etc. It's IFR. Like someone else said you don't know if what FS is presenting is real as you have nothing but what other say to compare to. Although some developers will say how their aircraft fly.JimCYWG

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Jim , just as you say it does take a lot of concentration especially when you factor in all the things you mention. Throw in a SID and using nav radios to fly it and your workload is extreme. I guess that


/Tord Hoppe, Sweden

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Guest DreamFleet

Potential joy stick / hardware problems aside, and these CAN be issues in FS, but usually ones that can be dealt with, let me step aside from that and say the following:Real flying is truly 3 dimensional and, as such, having a beer will not help, although I have flown FS after a Vodka or two, so you know I mean no offense. That also means that flying on a computer will never be the real thing. Regardless of the "3D" on your monitor, it is not the "3D" of the real world. You hit turbulence in FS, it is a non-event. I've hit the ceiling on my Piper Dakota when things get rough, and you can be sure that I am hand flying when that occurs.That being said, hand flying the average real plane is not hard at all, and that includes a 747, which is one of the easiest planes to hand fly. Yeah, landing is the hardest part. No wonder that autoland is far more popular in FS than it is in the real world.However, in the real world, as you no doubt discovered via FS, there are other things to be dealt with than just stick and rudder, this is why you have two pilots in the larger aircraft. Heck, I can even make a case where two pilots can work together in my little Piper Dakota!Believe it or not, "bigger" does not mean harder, and I will never forget my conversation with a TWA 747 captain, about 14 years ago. He was waiting in the terminal at EWR while we waited for for some repairs to the aircraft prior to him flying us to London that evening.I chatted him up, and asked him what the 747 was like to fly.Turns out he also owned a Cessna 210, and at the time I owned a Cherokee 235.His remark to me: "If you can fly that Cherokee, I'll have you shooting touch and goes within an hour with the 747".He was right, because 10 years later I rented a Level D 747-400 sim at UAL in Denver, and it was a very easy plane to fly. Never used the AP once, though the instructor did have me use the auto throttle. That proved more of a distraction for an old Piper pilot like me!Of course, the manual flying aspect is not all of it, but, aside from landing, hand flying is not that hard, once you have experience.It is sad that in FS we seem to have many who feel the only way they can fly is via an FMC and automation. Believe it or not, a human being can actually fly a SID, STAR, or ILS by hand. It is what real pilots are trained to do. It's not always easy, but you certainly do not need automation to do it for you.I wonder how many virtual 767 captains in FS would pass a check ride in the real world, when faced with having to fly without the automation (as is usually the case) and having to to follow that approach procedure by hand, and having to shoot an approach to minimums, and land, all by hand. Real pilots can do this, that's what flying is all about!Yes, using "automation" is "realistic", BUT, in the real world you do not get to use it unless you can fly without it, and may that never change.However, on a larger aircraft, having another pilot sitting next to you always helps. ;-)I am finally installing a 2-axis AP on my Piper Dakota, so it will hold altitude, however it will not do vertical speed or glide slope hold. We could have gotten those features, but for the $7000 extra it would have cost, we saw no need.Imagine, I have to trim the airplane for a climb or descent!Most airplanes, regardless of size, are not hard to fly by hand. In fact the bigger ones can be even easier than the smaller ones. You just need to keep ahead of them, and be on your game. It's like anything else, ya' gotta know your stuff.Yes, automation certainly does provide for greater safety / fatigue reduction, but it is not an excuse for not knowing how to hand fly. I mean, that's the true joy of flying; taking that wheel / stick in your hands and making the plane do what you need it to do. It's not all about programming something to do it for you, and the majority of real pilots will tell you that.One of the world's largest and safest airlines, Southwest, still does not have VNAV, Auto throttle, or autoland on their aircraft. Their pilots do have some automated luxuries, but they still have to know how to fly.I like their philosophy, as does a good friend of mine, who is a captain for them. He also flies a Piper Aerostar when he is not flying one of their 737-700s. I once flew his Aerostar, first time I ever flew one, from take off to short final (yeah, I let him land it!), and I only used the AP to hold altitude, and at FL 240 that was wise. ;-)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

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Guest Adverse Yawn

>>Of course, the manual flying aspect is not all of it, but, aside from >>landing, hand flying is not that hard, once you have experience.Taken in isolation I think that would probably be true. I don't think it is that simple though. The difficulty is hand flying accurately and precisely. That is what commercial pilots are trained to do and should be able to do. One example is being able to maintain your airspeed to +5/-0 kts in a descent whilst maintaining the correct Rate of Descent, not easy in something heavy, of low drag (no props, swept wing), engines with lag, etc. Intercepting radials without overshooting, flying a hold are also things that mark you out as an efficient, safe and professional pilot. Put together in an operational environment, these things are difficult and take aptitude and training to achieve consistently. Many people, me included, have to concentrate hard to achieve this in a SEP!

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Guest Kingair315

Ive taught my 5 children, 17 grandchildren, and several friends to handfly fly using the FS. The biggest problem Ive found is that the adjustment in the FS for NULL & SENSITIVITIES, is not set correctly for the controls used. To set the Null, open a SPOT window so you can see the surfaces. Barely Move the controls, if the surfaces move or if they move without even touching the controls, the Null is set too -narrow- ... Go to the Null settting, and change it a little, and recheck, did they more more or less? If more, move it in the other direction. Keep doing this, until you find you can move the control a hair or two and the surfaces do not move at all. Again, move the control until you see a full deflection up or down of the controls. Did you barely move the controls? If so, the sensitivity is set to high. Reduce the sensitivity, until you can move the controls at -least- half way before getting full movement of the surface. Personally, I prefer to set it, so FULL movement of the control, gives me FULL movement of the surface... but not all controls can be set that way. When set correctly, you can make specific movements, to make specific maneuvers. Setting them to for full movement when doing airobatics, means snappier or faster response, with a full swing of the controls.... With the control set to maximum swing, and you get a matching movement of the control surface, you can then do airobatic manuevers well. When using Radio Control Models, you set them in this manner. If set to sensitive, you can overcontrol and down comes the aircraft. Much more expensive than losing control in the FS.... If you barely move the controls, and get a huge movement of the controls, it is very easy to OVERCONTROL or even impossibole to control the aircraft. IF using autopilot and you want to switch to handflying, watch the trim knob. If it is way up or down, and you switch it will be difficult to regain control, even with the controls set correctly. Move your throttle, increase or decrease speed, and watch the trim. You will see it moving to compensate. When you want to handfly, adjust your throttles to center the trim, so when you remove the altitude control, the aircraft barely moves up or down, and you can then increase throttle to climb, or decrease it to desend. TO fly straight and level, adjust the trim until it flies at the altitude you wish. You may have to readjust from time to time slightly to keep it at the chosen altitude according to changes in the wind. By using the trim you should be able to get -ANY- aircraft to fly straight and level, unless there are strong gusty winds. Practice, practice, practice, with a 150,172, or 182, until you can make 25-50 flights without any problem. This experience will then carry over into other aircraft you fly. You may need to individually adjust your controls for -each- aircraft, depending upon the modeling. If you cant fly it by adjusting the controls this way, use a different model of the aircraft. My grandchildren have used a great variety of controls, and following these intructions have been able to adjust all of them so they can manually fly.Bob

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Guest Kingair315

P.S.Have seen hundreds of complaints in the FS about aircraft that creap, or taxi too fast, and You can also adjust your throttle, to make the aircraft sit still, when you want. First, if the aircraft creaps without the brakes on, and it is a twin engine, click on the tiny airplane, and bring up the throttles. Usually the IDLE throttle is set too high, especially in the Default Kingair. Moving the throttle down just short of shutting down works wonders. Then, it can also be the throttle control in the stick. If it still creaps, reduce throttle sensitivity until it stops, but with full movement of the throttle you still get an increase at the top end... If it still creaps, it can be the Null is too narrow. Widen it, until you can move the throttle a hair or two, without any increase in engine speed.You may have to play with it a bit till you get the hang of adjusting throttle, but I havent found a single aircraft that I could not get to stop creaping without the brakes. If I ever do, will discard the model. Havent had one that I could not have excellent control of the speed when taxiing.... Bob

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