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scottb613

Learjet 35A Down @ Teterboro NJ (N452DA)

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Hi Folks,

Looks like we lost one in Teterboro NJ yesterday... Funny - I've looked at this paint previously planning on doing it at some point... Initial reports point to a difficult Circle to Land approach with gusting winds in excess of 45 knots... Circle To Land approaches sure seem to raise the difficulty bar as there have been a bunch of high profile crashes while using this type of approach...

 

079198.jpg

 

Quotes regarding the approach used at KTEB:

 

Quote

It's pretty tricky there, you see IFR arrivals are given the ILS to Rnwy 06, with circle to land on Rnwy 01 when winds are Northerly. The close proximity to KEWR forces this type of arrival, and there is no approach to Rnwy 01 as that would cause you to overfly the other airport (or nearly so). if you look at the ILS to 06, you can't start the circle till passing Torby NDB (tower and approach control requirement), probably to avoid KEWR as much as possible or perhaps noise abatement. You're at 760' during the circle and you must circle to the right which places you between a group of towers, two being only about 100 feet below you and over the Meadowlands football stadium at mid field. You will lose sight of most of the airport, and after passing the stadium, you really have to bank hard to the left and pick up the approach end of Rnwy 01 in the turn, while descending because the approach end is offset to the south by about 3,000' when compared to Rnwy 06. All this said, if you have the wind strongly from the left (as it was today) your chance of overshooting final is really high, and your base to final is only about 1nm out. Since most jets circle at about 150-160 knots, this one maneuver really requires you have your "A" game on!!!!

Quote

I fly a Hawker and have done that approach at night and its a ba-- breaker!

 

Regards,

Scott


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Sad, was at EWR at the gate when this happened. I've flown into  TEB, but only in a Baron, never a jet. I've done that approach, but in good WX and daytime. 

My sympathies to all of those affected. 


Busdriver (Bill)

KPHL

8086K @5.4GHz, EVGA GTX 1080 TI FTW3, DDR4 16GB @4000MHz, Samsung 970 NVMe (M.2) Windows 10 Pro, Samsung M.2 1TB for P3D V4.5

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Just awful... They've released the CCTV footage of the crash too...


GA-Z87-D3HP, i5 4690K @4.40GHz, 8GB RAM @1600MHz, GPU GTX970 4GB, Win10 x64 Home Premium, Hiper M 880W PSU, 1X 250GB SSD (OS) 1X 500GB SSD (P3Dv3.4), 1X 250GB SSD (Games), 1X 500GB HDD

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Hi Bjoern,

Nice find - illustrates it well - even has the proper autopilot - I think they mentioned 15 knot crosswinds and you can see how much work it is - times that by three with gusts - wow...

Regards,
Scott

 


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Circle to Land is still the most difficult procedure flown. It requires planning, a good briefing, and precise aircraft control. We still require it as a part of the type rating that I teach for King Airs, simply because of the number of locations where circle to land is still required. With RNAV RNP so many people believe that circling is dying and will be replaced with radius to fix style procedures. That may happen but in the meantime, people who fly business and corporate aircraft better know how to circle properly. I think circling in an FFS is a great teaching tool because the lack of visuals makes the crew think about the procedure more technically, i.e. turn right to a specific heading, cross abeam the touchdown point and time for a specific period, and then make the descending 180 degree turn to the runway. 


Ken

Join Elite Air Taxi a free VA http://www.flyelite.net

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Hi Ken,

Thanks for your insights - those RNP approaches require a full blown FMC right ? The Garmin's/BK's can't fly them...

Regards,
Scott 


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The Wiki says that RNP is mostly a certification standard regarding accuracy and reliability of navigation systems on board aircraft. It doesn't specify any equipment.

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Hi Bjoern,

Yeah - a while back I had questioned why the RNP approaches didn't show up on the GTN - IIRC - the response was that the RNP approaches usually consisted of flying a curved segment from a fix - different than a DME Arc - and that the Garmin units couldn't do this - don't know if it was limited by hardware or regulation...

Regards,

Scott


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Since I can't edit my posts: the examples I used were the RNP approaches into KPSP...

Regards,
Scott


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RNAV (RNP) is a hardware requirement and the AR (Authorization Required) part is a training requirement. RNAV (RNP) requires that the SBAS hardware is capable of RNP less than 1 and the navigation unit must be capable of displaying and flying Radius to Fix (RF) legs. Somewhere is a list of aircraft with this capability and as I recall they are mostly commercial airliners and larger business jets. Universal has a good white paper on the requirements RNAV (RNP) White Paper.

It seems that the latest Garmin Update to the GTN 750 Garmin added the capability for Radius to Fix type procedures stating it "opened up more approach options" to me it sounds like they are saying that the equipment is RNAV (RNP) capable. However, at least from my understanding this is not a simple update the software and go fly RNP approaches sort of thing. There needs to be some sort of addendum stating that aircraft tail # has this capability and you would still have to prove to the FAA you meet the requirements of  AC 90-101a and for Part 91 I assume have a LOA issued by your local FSDO. PART 121, 135 would need it added to their OPSPEC. 

I don't teach RNAV (RNP) so I am speaking off the cuff here based on little information on the subject. When the conversation comes up I refer clients back to their flight department. RNAV RNP is beyond to scope of the courses we teach. 


Ken

Join Elite Air Taxi a free VA http://www.flyelite.net

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Hi Ken,

Thanks for the detailed write up - much appreciated...

Regards,
Scott


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