Alex Kulak

PMDG 737 Update for P3D V4

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On 27/06/2017 at 7:32 PM, scandinavian13 said:

Citation needed.

I am so glad I have spent somewhere in the region of $500-600 on PMDG products over the years. The customer service is sooo good and clearly my custom is appreciated. I can tell this by the tone of the management posts in this forum. You all need to lighten up. There was a post from management stating that the NGX would be updated 18th-25th June. That is a promise in my book. All you need do is post an update from time to time and stop being rude to your customers when they ask a simple question.

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2 minutes ago, speedpig said:

I am so glad I have spent somewhere in the region of $500-600 on PMDG products over the years. The customer service is sooo good and clearly my custom is appreciated. I can tell this by the tone of the management posts in this forum. You all need to lighten up. There was a post from management stating that the NGX would be updated 18th-25th June. That is a promise in my book. All you need do is post an update from time to time and stop being rude to your customers when they ask a simple question.

Patrick,

Your earlier post indicated that you were frustrated that something was overdue. The only way you would have been able to interpret that something was overdue would be by intentionally distorting what we had actually said, which is why I very bluntly requested that you provide a specific reference to a post where we made such a promise, because we have not promised anything. In fact, for literal years we have very carefully provided updates that specifically avoid such language and promises.

Instead of the sarcasm, simply providing a link to the post would've been appreciated. Instead, I'll go find the post to which I believe you were referring and point out, with clarity, that you have misrepresented the quote. All due respect, if you misrepresent what we said intentionally so that you can attempt to shame us for being "late," I don't see a reason to stand on much ceremony. Pleasantries are a two way street. You clearly gave us no benefit of the doubt by accusing us of not meeting a deadline that we never set, despite the clarity with which we updated the community in our recent posts. I simply responded on the same level.

This is the post I believe that you are referring to:

...specifically this section:

"PMDG 737NGX:

  • This product is still being prepared for testing.
  • This product is expected to enter final testing early the week of 26JUN17.
  • The current expectation is to release between 30JUN-10JUL, depending upon how smoothly final testing goes.

PMDG 737-600/700 Expansion:

  • This product is still being prepared for testing.
  • This product expected to enter testing a day or two after the 737NGX commences testing.
  • The current expectation is to release this product a day or two after 737NGX."

Please note the use of the word "expectation." This means that it was something that we were predicting, and not that we were promising. If you look at a weather forecast, they use similar terms to represent expected temperatures, conditions, or precipitation amounts. The reason is that there is uncertainty. It's a simple prediction, and may not end up being the case.

"Expect" is not a promise. There isn't a single dictionary out there that will back you up there.

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"The current expectation is to release between 30JUN-10JUL, depending upon how smoothly final testing goes".

Almost what the post I refer to said, except you changed the dates which did say 18-25 JUN.

You can go ahead and do it whenever you want, just don't be prima donna about it... "we'll do it when we're ready" type of attitude.

All I, as a customer ask, is to be kept informed. Is that really too much to ask or expect? There is a trend with PMDG people on here to have supercilious attitude.. why?

 

So, when you make a statement, please be kind enough to come to the forum and say the expected date has slipped. Don't wait for the date to pass and make us ask questions.

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Okay guys it's getting a little out of hand here. This forum was created out of curiosity of when and why the 73 was being released and delayed. This forum has turned into a battlefield between moderators and between each other. It needs to stop. No, I'm not a moderator nor do I strive to be like one, but when people start making "sexist" remarks and people start fighting the moderators, it gets out of hand very fast. We just all need to remain friends and not start a war between each other.

We all want the 73! No one needs to start a war over it though! (No rush though :dry:)

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5 hours ago, speedpig said:

"The current expectation is to release between 30JUN-10JUL, depending upon how smoothly final testing goes".

Almost what the post I refer to said, except you changed the dates which did say 18-25 JUN.

The dates have changed. We're in the habit of updating posts occasionally when we feel there's a need to update them. This is particularly the case with issue tracking and major update threads that encompass multiple products, such as this one.

Either way, what has not changed is the all-important word 'expectation.'

5 hours ago, speedpig said:

You can go ahead and do it whenever you want, just don't be prima donna about it... "we'll do it when we're ready" type of attitude.

All I, as a customer ask, is to be kept informed. Is that really too much to ask or expect? There is a trend with PMDG people on here to have supercilious attitude.. why?

Projection truly is a wonderful thing...

You didn't ask to be updated. You put up a post accusing us of not meeting a promise. There never was a promise. There was a mention of an expected date. There is a literal Grand Canyon of difference between the two concepts.

Had you simply asked for an update instead of throwing a fit about a promise we never made, perhaps I would have been in the mood to ask the crew. Instead, I was distracted by having to reel you back into the reality of the actual situation (no promise exists, and as such, it's not reasonable to accuse us of not living up to aforementioned promise).

5 hours ago, speedpig said:

So, when you make a statement, please be kind enough to come to the forum and say the expected date has slipped. Don't wait for the date to pass and make us ask questions.

So, when we give a broad, vague idea of when something might happen and we don't hit that, you want us all to stop what we're doing, come back here, and update you about the obvious fact that the date that is now in the past is now going to slip?

Obvious answer is obvious, and doesn't require us to stop being productive to help to avoid further slippage of the date that we never actually promised would be the date.

I can see it now:

*Ding*
"Ladies and gentlemen - your captain speaking. We expect the flight time to be 7:43 today, with occasional turbulence as we cross the Atlantic. Please enjoy the flight [...]."
[8:00 elapses]
*Ding*
"Excuse me, flight attendant. Yes, the captain said that he expected that the flight would only be 7:43. It is now 8:00. Please instruct the captain to be so kind as to update us and say the expected arrival time has slipped. I can't believe he would wait to make us ask you to have him do so."

 

I could understand the actual question of "hey, I noticed that, while you gave a pretty broad idea of dates for this project is there any chance we could get an update?"
...and an actual statement of "you promised that you would have this done by this date."

The question itself is reasonable. The expectation that I'm going to interpret a statement based entirely in falsehood as a request for more info is not, however. If you request info, request the info. If you want to attempt to assert a falsehood in order to shame us into providing info, do not be surprised when you aren't met with the information to answer the question that you never asked, while also getting corrected for an incorrect assertion.

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"So, when we give a broad, vague idea of when something might happen and we don't hit that, you want us all to stop what we're doing, come back here, and update you about the obvious fact that the date that is now in the past is now going to slip?"

 

Hmm, no time for updates? So, how long would it take to type "sorry guys, the ETA has slipped the new ETA is?" I reckon 3-4 minutes, yet you have time for this lengthy post for the sake of being supercilious.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think you product is great. Your customer service sucks.

Don't bother replying, just get on with your work.

 

 

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Here's a tip,

Calm down

Fly v3 and enjoy PMDG products there until v4 is fully supported by our favourite products.

Spend more time flying and less time moaning.

I'm sure PMDG are on the case and will deliver an exceptional product as ever.

Keep up the good work gents!

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Speedpig is right. The comradeship and friendly atmosphere that used to exist 10 years ago here and previous to that has gone, together with all the old names that used to help everyone without hostile sarcasm and insults.

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2 hours ago, G7USL said:

Speedpig is right. The comradeship and friendly atmosphere that used to exist 10 years ago here and previous to that has gone, together with all the old names that used to help everyone without hostile sarcasm and insults.

I don't think the friendly atmosphere is gone, I think it still exists but the laziness of some people and bad attitude of others is wearing thin. How many of these posts have we now seen? Both NGX and 77W? Everyone knows that any news will be announced and pinned, so what is the point of these threads? Then when people start attacking PMDG because a free update is taking longer than they originally planned, how do you think PMDG should respond to that?

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5 minutes ago, PMDG777 said:

I don't think the friendly atmosphere is gone, I think it still exists but the laziness of some people and bad attitude of others is wearing thin. How many of these posts have we now seen? Both NGX and 77W? Everyone knows that any news will be announced and pinned, so what is the point of these threads? Then when people start attacking PMDG because a free update is taking longer than they originally planned, how do you think PMDG should respond to that?

+1

Personally, I think Kyle has remained calm and professional considering some of the posts; and the authors' rudeness and sense of expectation for a FREE update, and demands that estimated timescales be deadlines that must never be missed!  (Not how the real world works).

Then you have generally rude and abusive comments like this one :-

5 hours ago, duggy35 said:

Why is Kyle the public interface of any organisation?

Steve

Again, I'm not sure many people could remain as calm as Kyle does in the face of dealing with this sort fo thing on a daily basis.

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2 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

I think it still exists but the laziness of some people and bad attitude of others is wearing thin

True, among them you can count the ones who think that because they bought one of PMDG's product, PMDG are immediately and irrevocably bound to give them any info about their other products.

 

21 hours ago, speedpig said:

All I, as a customer ask, is to be kept informed. Is that really too much to ask or expect? There is a trend with PMDG people on here to have supercilious attitude.. why?

Being a customer - because you have bought the P3D v3 version (or any other product) - doesn't give you any authority of requiring info about something you didn't pay for aka P3D v4 version.

Or otherwise said, you are not a customer as such for the v4 version. You bought the v3, you have it. PMDG offers the v4 for free, great. But would they give no information at all about the update (which they do by the way but apparently not enough for your taste), you could not blame them for that anyway.

 

6 hours ago, speedpig said:

Your customer service sucks.

Totally uncalled for in my opinion. You simply require more than what you think you are entitled to.

I can understand the eagerness about the update but please refrain from blaming PMDG customer service indiscrimately.

 

A personal thought: I think this kind of behaviour results at least partially from the way we live, in a world where people are permanently connected to internet through computers and smartphones. Where the information is or must be immediately and constantly available. The generation of the "everything here and now". "We" don't stand any more the delays and distances. The means of communication have definitely transformed our world and behaviour and if it brings a lot of good things it also comes with side effects...

 

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5 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

I don't think the friendly atmosphere is gone, I think it still exists but the laziness of some people and bad attitude of others is wearing thin. How many of these posts have we now seen? Both NGX and 77W? Everyone knows that any news will be announced and pinned, so what is the point of these threads? Then when people start attacking PMDG because a free update is taking longer than they originally planned, how do you think PMDG should respond to that?

If your going to quote me, get it right. Try and realise I never mentioned the update.

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7 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

...a free update...

 

6 hours ago, JYW said:

... sense of expectation for a FREE update...

 

4 hours ago, Budbud said:

Being a customer - because you have bought the P3D v3 version (or any other product) - doesn't give you any authority of requiring info about something you didn't pay for aka P3D v4 version...

They have already stated that the costs associated with v4 were rolled into the original purchase price. So it's not "free."

Hopefully this one doesn't get deleted too.

Gabe Dodds

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57 minutes ago, gabesta said:

Hopefully this one doesn't get deleted too.

Full names on all posts please, see the forum rules.  No name is the top reason they delete posts.

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I'm sorry, I just have to sit back and laugh to when people get overzealous about something as simple as this. PMDG has been more than transparent and communicative about the status of their update path. Each week they update us on the status. But let me ask a serious questions, what more do you expect them to do? Answer you how its going each minute or hour or day? What for and to what cause? To reassure you that its getting done? 

 

I am the first one that is anxious to fly the 737 in the V4. I too am anxious to fly it. However, I understand that this is something that takes time and work and for it to be broken when it gets released I instead prefer for it to be 100% and ready for the long legs and flights it will endure with me. 

Now let's take in comparison to some other developers. 

FSLabs A320.- On release date they provided the updated that the V4 will be free and that its already being tested- 1 Aircraft - 3 Weeks ago. (We've seen maybe 1 communication (Officially) since then.) Still have no clue when I will fly it. But I am patiently waiting. 

GTN (Flight 1)- On release date they also provided an update that there will be a V4. It would take who knows how long, and they will CHARGE for an update (again 1 communication)

FS2Crew - A few days after release date they gave us an update on what the plans where. Again CHARGE for updates. 

My favorite of all time 

LEVEL D: Took them 10 years to update us on the 757. Took them nearly 4 to make the 767 compatible with V3. 

Aerosoft - Where do we begin? CRJ- 10+ Years in development. Airbus X series (Charge for the upgrades) 

Here is my point, PMDG has been extremely transparent and if you are so anxious to fly the 737 or the 773 in V4 perhaps you should have just waited until then and continued flying V3. 

All of the developers above I support, I own the FSLA320, I own some FS2Crew packs, I own the GTN750 and I will be purchasing them again. I beta tested the 767 for V3 and will buy the 757 as soon as it comes out. So trust me I say this not because I am not also anxious because god knows I am. But everyone has to calm down, and be gratefull that in 10-12 days by the current estimates we will have an aircraft to fly and it will be free. 

 

Most likely the most popular aircraft in the virtual skies. So I say this to all of you. How long do you think it takes to write this code? to recompile it, to find a fault and fix it? at the same time maintain your family? The people working on this project have kids, families and other responsibilities. Give them the room and the space and be grateful that you get these updates on progress, updates to a new sim and for free because let me tell you, not many are doing that. 

 

I leave with this. I have asked my self that question several times. this is my answer if it were me doing it. 

giphy.gif

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On 6/30/2017 at 3:50 PM, speedpig said:

"The current expectation is to release between 30JUN-10JUL, depending upon how smoothly final testing goes".

Almost what the post I refer to said, except you changed the dates which did say 18-25 JUN....

...All I, as a customer ask, is to be kept informed. Is that really too much to ask or expect?

The post you quoted is found in a pinned topic. "Pinned" as in: "it can always be found in a specific, known, location at the top of the PMDG General forum" The pinned post located at: 

Since you quoted from it, you obviously know where it is.

As the post title suggests, it is a continuously revised post that contains the most current official information regarding the proposed release schedule for P3D V4 updates. If a release date slips, that is where you will find the information. They did exactly that when the original proposed date for the NGX moved from late June to early July. 

You are critical of PMDG for not keeping customers "informed", while at the very same time quoting from the exact pinned post specifically intended to keep customers informed. I don't get it.

I have that post bookmarked so I can go directly to it at anytime to see the latest info. It makes more sense than visiting various aircraft specific sub-forums, asking the question, waiting for an answer etc. etc. etc.

 

 

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Any news about updating the 737NGX for Prepar3dv4, I'm anxious because what I read was for the beginning of July?

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Read the post above yours and the topic it's linking to. That's all the news you need, and all the news you are getting.

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Good grief folks, in software engineering we have a saying, "If you want it really bad, you're gonna get it really bad".  

I'm all for taking the cautious approach and allowing PDMG to continue their reputation for delivering a solid and well-tested product, one that is nothing short of an engineering marvel of complexity.  Folks today must think programming is like making clay sculptures....

Mark Trainer

 

 

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I am reluctant to throw my hat in but, here I go. I have been a PMDG customer since the 777 for FLY2. I have bought everything they have put out since, without exception. This includes repurchasing the 737 and 777 for P3D. In all that time I have never once, that I can remember, seen them give a hard release date.

I have, however, seen them pestered, threatened, and berated during every launch for not doing so. Never, in all that time, have I ever seen it make them move any faster. In fact, what I have seen is developers, and sometimes Rob, have to come in here and basically say the same thing when that time could be better spend chasing down a memory leak of FMC logic bug. As a matter of fact, the most successful launches and updates are always the ones where they give no timeframe at all and just sneak it out. All a firm commitment does is leave people asking, "Now? ... How 'bout now? ... What about now?, " every 5 minutes, and then crash the servers when it does drop.

There is almost no one out there that is even remotely trying to achieve the realism that PMDG considers a baseline. A baseline that PMDG moves farther forward with each new product. This includes the documentation and installers and not just the core code. Part of the price we pay for that complexity is that we have to give them time. They are playing 3d chess when everyone else is playing checkers. They will get it done. As someone who almost exclusively flies the 738 and only has v4 installed, trust me, I want it just as much as you. 

My two cents.

PS. Cut them a break.

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Kyle is one of the most respected and friendly people in here. He's doing a great job supporting and keeping cool! Even with the most ludicrous posts and/or accusations against him og PMDG. 

Nobody is entitled to receive development-updates. PMDG doesn't owe anyone anything in that regard. It's a customer service they provide... but given the recent activity - maybe they shouldn't anymore?

What is going on with people today... has the whole world run out of coffee??

*SIGH*

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I have no problem waiting for the new NGX version. But as a cockpit builder I would really like to know if it will be just an adaption to P3D_V4 or if we will get functional changes in the SDK, e.g. a direct LED control, that includes all conditions as light test, cold and dark, bus conditions, a.s.o. IMHO it would be even easier to output just the LED state of the screen NGX.

Best regards

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As with our last two aircraft being moved into P3Dv4, the NGX is simply going to be compatibility. Some minor stuff may be fixed simply as a part of the conversion process, but we're not intentionally going in to change things, unless those things are directly related to getting the product into the new sim.

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The first thing I tested was to see if during the flight replay the flaps were configured for landing and if the engines' reverses and speedbrakes were deployed at touch down. I'm sorry to say these features are still out. The excuse was the limitation of 32 bits and addressable memory.

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1 hour ago, Luis Vargas said:

The first thing I tested was to see if during the flight replay the flaps were configured for landing and if the engines' reverses and speedbrakes were deployed at touch down. I'm sorry to say these features are still out. The excuse was the limitation of 32 bits and addressable memory.

Actually this has nothing to do with PMDG and everything to do with the engine which FSX and P3D are based on. If you want this fixed, you would be better asking LM to fix it because PMDG can do nothing about it. It also has nothing to do with 32bit.

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