Applying TIM to heatsink - best practice?

[vortex681 806]

5 hours ago, Alan_A said:

Am trying to recall if I've done both surfaces in the past, or just the CPU.

Applying to both sides will almost certainly be applying a lot more than you need - the less you apply (as long as it coats evenly), the better the heat transfer. Too much almost acts as an insulator.

[Alan_A 1,650]

Yes, good point, thanks - and it comes back to me that in the past, I've only applied TIM to the CPU, not to the heatsink.  Will probably stick with that approach here, so as not to overdo it.

Sorry to seem so obtuse - this is actually my fourth or fifth build.  But the most recent one is nearly three years in the past, and I've clearly gotten rusty.  Aiming to be back up to speed before I take any parts out of any boxes...

[lownslo 592]

From the maker themselves: http://www.coollaboratory.com/pdf/manual_liquid_pro_englisch.pdf

Greg

[Alan_A 1,650]

Thanks!  Had stumbled across that earlier today but lost track of the link - good to have it on hand.

I see they leave it up to the user's discretion to coat one surface or both.  I think I'll go with their overriding injunction ("don't use too much") and stick with one only.

Time to order the last of the parts - aiming for a weekend build.

 

[martin-w 3,234]

17 hours ago, lownslo said:

You apply it your way, I'll apply it mine.  In the end it's all more subjective than objective... the key is lowering the viscosity of a conventional TIM so that it might better fill the voids left by manufacturing.

 

Of course, apply it your way indeed. Not telling you to do otherwise, As I said, the difference is small, one or two degrees. You are free to apply how you like.

Not subjective though, properly conducted tests do reveal temp differences with different application methods. I refer to conventional TIM, for low viscosity liquid metal see instructions that come with product.

[martin-w 3,234]

15 hours ago, Alan_A said:

Thanks.  As noted, it'll be Liquid Pro.  Just to clarify - does it need to be applied to both surfaces?  Or spread a layer evenly on the CPU lid and let the pressure from the cooler do the rest?  Sorry, am not a newbie but it's been a while, and I'm rusty, so trying to come back up to speed.

 

For Liquid Pro they give you the option, one side or both. For Conductonaut, the instructions say both sides. So it does vary dependant on the liquid metal TIM in question. Hence, always refer to instructions that come with the product. 

[martin-w 3,234]

Innovation Cooling, the guys that make the Diamond paste that used to be my favourite, did the tests linked to below. They concluded the single blob method in the centre was the best. They also mention how correctly applied, the "line" application method can be effective also.Again, this is for conventional TIM, not liquid metal.

It does also depend on he viscosity of the TIM. With high viscosity TIM's the blob method is even more advantageous. 

 

http://www.innovationcooling.com/application.html

 

 

 

[lownslo 592]

6 hours ago, martin-w said:

...properly conducted tests...

Please do provide evidence of "properly conducted tests".  Hint... not one of the many YouTube videos the kiddies make up to enhance their revenue stream, or any testing done by a TIM seller.  Please provide valid scientific testing performed by a independent entity.  Narrowing it down the way I have may preclude you from wasting much of your time looking for test data we can actually believe and trust.

Regards,

Greg

[martin-w 3,234]

I'm not sure why you're being so intense about this to be honest Greg. It's not an argument. We're not trying to achieve world peace or fix climate change. It's just TIM application. And as I said, we are talking about a mere one or two degrees. No need to be defensive, I have no issue with you applying TIM how you like. No matter what you do it won't be a show stopper. Plus I don't care what you do of course.

 

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or any testing done by a TIM seller.

 

Why don't you want me to provide tests conducted by a TIM seller? A TIM seller isn't going to fabricate the results. A TIM seller wants you to apply "their" TIM is just the right way, a way that it will be most effective. So you can be sure they will advocate the "best" method. They are hardly going to give you bad advice and compromise results from their own TIM now are they. In fact TIM manufacturers are the "best" sources to rely on.

And of course, as you know, I have already provided you with Innovation Cooling test results. You can check them out if you like, safe in the knowledge that it will be the best way to apply their TIM. If you aren't interested in their advice, no problem.

I doubt you'll find extensive, properly conducted tests, from anything other than TIM manufactures, for the simple reason that no one else would be prepared to invest significant funds necessary just for TIM application. The manufactures will because they want you to achieve the lowest temp with their product.

We can also use common sense as well and consider whether voids, air pockets, are more likely if we "spread it around a bit" or leave a blob undisturbed and rely on cooler pressure.

Again, as I've said numerous times, apply it how you like, I don't care. But hopeful the link I provided will be useful for the OP.

[lownslo 592]

4 hours ago, martin-w said:

I'm not sure why you're being so intense about this to be honest Greg.

One could say the same about you, Martin.  You are correct, it is just TIM application... yet you seem to insist that placing a blob is the "correct" method.  The priority for me is not the method of application but making the viscosity of the TIM as low as safely possible.  Simple as that.

I don't trust TIM sellers recommendations simply because after dealing with the computer industry on a minor business basis for more than two decades I've come to distrust most in the biz.  Any testing to be done on a tech system I want to see done by an independent entity using scientific methodology.  Anything else is pure marketing B.S.  I usually build 5-10 computers a year and just putting a bill of materials together always leaves me shaking my head (my current fav from the industry is the upcoming i9/X299 platform... what a "deal" that's shaping up to be for the consumer).

Cheers,

Greg

[martin-w 3,234]

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One could say the same about you, Martin.  

 

Nope!

 

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yet you seem to insist that placing a blob is the "correct" method. 

 

No I'm not, Innovation Cooling are.  As I keep saying, its just one or two degrees, you are free to do what you like, it won't be an issue for you. However... Innovation Cooling, as I said, conducted research that suggested blob or line is best. Believe them if you like, disbelieve them if you like. Your choice.

 

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The priority for me is not the method of application but making the viscosity of the TIM as low as safely possible.  Simple as that.

 

That doesn't make sense to be honest, but as said, you are free to do what you like.

But as we are enthusiasts and enjoy discussing this stuff... obviously the "method of application" is significant and advisable as a priority. You can make the "viscosity of the TIM as low as you like, but if you dawb a ton of TIM on the IHS, or whisk it up like crazy and introduce air pockets you will increase CPU temp. Just an exaggerated example, but it should be clear from the example that application is important if we wish to optimise cooling.

The second point is that viscosity isn't an issue with the blob or line method. Viscosity is only an issue with your favoured spread method. If you did use the blob or line method, you wouldn't have to worry about viscosity. The pressure from the mounting of the cooler handles that for you and spreads it with ease.

 

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I don't trust TIM sellers recommendations simply because after dealing with the computer industry on a minor business basis for more than two decades I've come to distrust most in the biz. 

 

Again, and no offence intended, but I don't see your logic. Fairly obvious that a TIM manufacturer wouldn't want to compromise your cooling and their own product by giving you the wrong application method. 

 

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 Anything else is pure marketing B.S.

 

Sorry but that makes zero sense. How can instructions how to apply  TIM be marketing BS? That's like saying that a car manufacturer will supply instructions to change gear that tell us to not bother with the clutch and to make sure there's a crunching noise when we change gear. Or telling their customers to make sure there's no oil in their gear boxes.  Obviously they wont supply instructions that compromise their product.

It would be different if you were referring to claimed thermal efficiency. Now that could be marketing hyperbole. 

[lownslo 592]

14 minutes ago, martin-w said:

The second point is that viscosity isn't an issue with the blob or line method. Viscosity is only an issue with your favoured spread method. If you did use the blob or line method, you wouldn't have to worry about viscosity. The pressure from the mounting of the cooler handles that for you and spreads it with ease.

Viscosity is always an issue no matter what the method of application!!

I had intended to write more but I believe we're done here.  It's clear I'll never have you build a computer for me nor will you have me build a computer for you.  We'll just agree to disagree (on this, and no doubt other subjects).

[martin-w 3,234]

15 hours ago, lownslo said:

Viscosity is always an issue no matter what the method of application!!

I had intended to write more but I believe we're done here.  It's clear I'll never have you build a computer for me nor will you have me build a computer for you.  We'll just agree to disagree (on this, and no doubt other subjects).

 

No, of course viscosity isn't "always an issue".  Innovation Cooling's paste has quite a high viscosity, tricky to apply by the spread method but not an issue at all with the blob method. Not an issue because the cooler mounting applies enough pressure to spread it with ease. The only way viscosity would be an issue is if it was so high that not even cooler mounting pressure could compress it, and no TIM is manufactured that way.

 

And yes, I would have you build a PC for me. Again... the difference between the blob, line or spread or any method is minuscule. I used the spread method myself when I first started building PC's many years ago. 

Not sure if you've bothered to read the link I gave you or not, but I would recommend it, you might find it interesting. The mistake many make is the wrong sized blob. Too small and you don''t get good coverage, too big and it spills over. But done properly it's quick, easy and effective.