RealTrim

[Guest nilsca]

TV,>Is there a technique that anyone found for very small>adjustments, like during Cruise? I've still not been able to>master that properly. It may be a function of the>TrimEffectiveness step? >It is my hope that MS will give us access to the Accuracy of>the Trim, other than the ".air / .cfg" combo, in the next>version.i've uploaded another version http://www.meiers.net/nils/RealTrim0-9e.zipwhich allows to set an option in the menu to adjust thetrim increments based on the trim effectiveness chosenfor the current plane.So if your plane's trim is fairly effective (e.g. 3.0)then with this option 'on' the trim increments fortapping the trim keys go down by a third from thedefault what MS does.Needs some testing but seems to work nicely here.RegardsNils

[Avcomware 1]

Hi, Nils.Very good idea. I just downloaded it and will give you feedback ASAP. Since the fine trim is only / mainly needed for Level flight a combination of VSI reading and your Trim module may be the perfect answer. My old module would read the VSI, read the Button state, if active, I would issue a Trim count, and verify / check on it once every 2 sec., this can be longer. At level flight I had a Null / window where I did not respond, would ignore, + -10 FPM to maintain a Level flight. The one change I would make, problem, was that I had it in continuous / Toggle mode, it had to be turned on/off. Will get back with you in a few minutes. TV

[Avcomware 1]

Hi, Nils.This is much better. You may want to wait for more feedback, but every once in a while I get no response from my JS button, it seems like it

[Guest nilsca]

TV>once in a while I get no response from my JS buttonhmm, not clear why that would happen. The joystick ispolled about 20 times a second so if you're keeping the trim-button pressed the worst thing that shouldhappen is a 50ms delay on starting the trim.Are you saying you can't get the trim working at allthrough the button for some extended time?CheersNils

[Guest av84fun]

">>somehow Elite have found a way around this<>You use a lot of odd ball phrases in your posts, like "generic sim". FS is no more a "generic sim" than Elite. Both products are PLATFORMS that accomodate the FLIGHT MODELS which are painstakingly and in many cases brilliantly developed by noted experts in the field such as, DreamFleet, **, FSD and RealAir just to name a few.You demean the work of those people by suggesting that their flight models, running on FS9, are not AT LEAST as good as the models developed to run on Elite...which are great too but no better than the best models developed for FS...IMHO.If you referred exclusively to FS9 Default models (which you didn't) then I would agree with you that the FEW models that Elite offers are quite a bit better...as well they should be for the price required to buy them!But back to RealTrim, in my personal opinion, the notion of accomplishing TRIM by movement of the YOKE is so unrealistic as to be not something I would be interested in.My Yoke has an electric trim button (and most yokes/sticks can have buttons mapped to do the same thing.) That is the way it is in RW aircraft with electric trim systems and that is the way it should be accomplished on the sim.On MY rig, and with the sensitivity/Null zone settings I have adopted, the trim function is NOT twitchy or overly sensitive...on my fovorite add-ons in any event. In fact, it is quite realistic and well accomodates, for example, my technique in trimming from climb to cruise speed...which happens to be the STANDARD method of the vast majority of pilots who have progressed beyond student pilot skills (in spite of how many hours they may have logged.)Regards,Jim

[Guest av84fun]

<>I agree. It's been quite a while since I've had a CH yoke but I am certain that I recall that the instructions suggest NOT using the little "trim wheel" to trim the aircraft. It is intended, if I recall correctly, to accomplish "GROSS" changes in trim and is not supposed to be used as a "normal" trim wheel.I had a rocker switch on my CH mapped for nose up/down trim and it worked fairly well.Now, on my PFC yoke, I have a dedicated trim rocker just as ITRW and I experience no twitchiness or excessive sensitivity on the better add-on aircraft. All quite normal.Regards,Jim

[Guest av84fun]

<>Only for rookies who don't know any better or those who simply like to do it the hard way...which is, of course, their choice.Regards,Jim

[Avcomware 1]

Hi, Nils.>Are you saying you can't get the trim working at all>through the button for some extended time?What I experience, and the test sequence I setup is something like this:I pitch up about 5 degrees, wait for the VSI to respond, Hold Trim button while return to neutral, then pitch down and repeat the cycle. Every once in a while I see no response from my trim wheel.This only happens when many things are changing and I can actually observe my frame rate drop under 18 FPS where I have it locked at. I would wait to see if others have that problem before should worry about it. It may be that my system is being overloaded? I have a low to medium 320 XP Athlon. TV

[Guest Cindy_Zoonan]

> Let me partially correct myself while leaving the essential intent of > my post in tact.> In fact, on further reflection, during the period of acceleration from > climb to cruise flight, I maintain SOME minor forward pressure on the > yoke but trim off MOST of it for the reasons perviously cited.> But regarding the contrary advice...i.e. not to touch trim until the > full acceleration has occured is, IMHO, merely making extra, > unnecessary work and neglects the central purpose of the trim > mechanism.> To maintain trim for, say, an 80 kt. climb out, all the way to the > achievement of, say, 120 kt. cruise speed...a FIFTY PERCENT INCREASE > in speed with its related boost in lift and therefore, the need to > maintain forward pressure...is not IMHO, the optimal solution.Oohkay

[Guest Cindy_Zoonan]

This is completely wrong technique. How do I know? Were to ask Jim what the trim setting was for a C172 at cruise power in level flight (say for 2350 rpm) I betcha that he wouldn't be able to give an answer. I know exactly what it is, and I can demonstrate. Let's see what he says...

[Avcomware 1]

Hi, Nils,I just ran some tests, reassigned my button used for

[Guest av84fun]

<>Well Cindy, I'm glad that your flying career has advanced you all the way to the rarified air occupied by Skyhawks. Have you also been approinted to head up the FAA?? Or NASA? Because you seem to speak with the force of some considerable authority.But when you predict that I cannot answer you question, you are exactly correct. That's the good news for you. The bad news for you is that you cannot answer the question either...not for any Skyhawk other than one you happen (supposedly) to fly.That is so because they are ALL rigged differently...because trim tabs get bent...because connecting cables stretch over time. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SINGLE, EXACT TRIM SETTING FOR CRUISE FLIGHT. In addition, your scenario is botched because depending on temperature at a given altitude (which you did not specify) you will achieve higher and lower airspeeds at a given RPM setting and therefore, will have varying degrees of LIFT and therefore, will require different amounts of TRIM. Once you get out of the pattern, you will learn all this stuff.But the news for you is even worse. For verification, I started a thread at AOPA...a link is copied below. There have been some 30 responses to my post which asked for comments on the trim methodology I have posted here. Of the roughly 30 replies...virtually all from licensed pilots...EVERY SINGLE ONE agreed with my approach and NOT A SINGLE ONE agreed with yours. NOT ONE. You are SHUT OUT in the opinion poll.My favorite though is copied below. Here the guy is SO offended by my even ASKING about the appropriateness of my technique that he suspected I wasn't a pilot at all!! TOO FUNNY!Another poster attempted a guess as to why some publications advocate not using trim until cruise speed has been reached. His guess, and I agree, is that the advice is for STUDENT pilots who need to learn the primary purpose of control surfaces and NOT to try to fly the airplane with the trim wheel. GOOD ADVICE...until you get out of your PPL training (is that the phase you are in now) and then start to REALLY learn how to fly...or do you think that once you have your PPL, you know it all. That's what your posts sound like in all honesty.In fact, 100% of the pilots at the AOPA forum agree with me that there is NO POINT WHATSOEVER, in doing a one handed push up on the yoke while waiting for airspeed to build from climb to cruise.Moroever, in direct opposition to your misguided argument in favor of safety doing it your way...your way is actually UNSAFE because you are allowing a continuous build up in the need for physical forward pressure as airspeed increases and at that peak airspeed (target cruise) you will be in a MAXIMUM OUT OF TRIM situation. Therefore, if you were to be distracted...or get a cramp...or SNEEZE...causing you to release all that forward pressure, you would be suddenly in a dangerous nose up attitude.You are just wrong Cindy and a growing army of skilled pilots says you are. Read up..and JOIN AOPA...you will learn A LOT!Regards,Jimhttp://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=7510<>

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

Jim,I don't think you'll find much resistance because, now we have all clarified what we mean, your method is the same as the taught method. The process is simple within the early hours PPL environment because holding a 152 or PA28 down as it accelerates to a cruise speed not much quicker than Vy is pretty uneventful. It is only really once you get into a complex type that climbs at 100kts and then cruises at 150kts where not touching the trim till cruise speed can result in some heavy(ish) stick force. A new PPL would be forgiven for thinking that they shouldn't touch the trim until cruise speed due to their training on differnent machines, but they would be disabused of that approach during the checkout/rating process for the new fast and complex aircraft. The objective and point is that you don't TRIM the aircraft until cruise speed and you have powered back to cruise settings. There is a difference between touching the trim to relieve forward pressure and actually trimming the aircraft out. The standard advice remains IMHO.

[Guest MB]

HiI know this thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent, but I'd like to just bring it back for a moment to the debate about the merits of this module. As you can see from my low post count, I don't post often, but this thread has compelled me!First off, I do do RW flying - gliders to be precise. And yes, just like every other plane under the sun (probably), I trim to relieve stick pressure. Despite the fact that the actual action of trimming of this module is unrealistic, for me, this module is a godsend. The reason being - NOT EVRYONE HAS A FORCE FEEDBACK JOYSTICK/YOKE! So not everyone can trim to relieve stick pressure in fs. I don't have force feedback, so for me, the usual trimming procedure in fs has to be to guess how much trim I need, let go of the stick, find that oops that was too much, put a little less in, oops too little now, put a little more in, and so on. That's why it takes a lot of us over a minute to trim in fs.The module allows you to trim reasonably accurately in one movement - in that sense it's more relaistic. In the glider, i move the trimmer to relieve the pressure, and voila - it's trimmed in half a second. At least now in fs I can trim in the same time, even if the method is unrealistic. And that's why I love this module - thanks very much to Nils for making it!Sorry about that rant, I'll let you get back to your talk about trimming up to cruise speed - something that isn't really an issue for us glider pilots!!Mike

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

Mike,MMMmmmmmm - Gliding. Must do that one day. An even more compelling thought given the current and magnificent rate of