VOR-A Approach at PHNL

[CaptainLars 21]

Thank you very much for the explanation. I wasn't aware of most what you were saying.

The only question that remains though is, when I decide to take advantage of the larger Cat E protected circling area, do I have to request with ATC to avoid potential traffic conflicts? They "probably" know which category my aircraft is and expect me to use the smaller protected area of my own category.

[Driverab330 74]

1 hour ago, CaptainLars said:

Thank you very much for the explanation. I wasn't aware of most what you were saying.

The only question that remains though is, when I decide to take advantage of the larger Cat E protected circling area, do I have to request with ATC to avoid potential traffic conflicts? They "probably" know which category my aircraft is and expect me to use the smaller protected area of my own category.

I am not sure about the atc regulation, but I would prefer to tell atc what I intend to do as good airmanship. 

In real life if you are that tight in terms of weather minima, I would not accept such approach. Because you will for sure lose sight of the rwy on downwind close to the base turn due to the cockpit windows size of the 777, until you are about in the middle of the base turn. 

 

 

[CaptainLars 21]

Yes, it's always a sound idea to inform about what you are intending to do. Weather was fine though at the time I did this.

Thank you all very much! I learned a lot. (But I still cannot draw a range with a decimal place around my waypoints. I have no clue whether this is intended or not.)

[downscc 1,327]

24 minutes ago, CaptainLars said:

(But I still cannot draw a range with a decimal place around my waypoints. I have no clue whether this is intended or not.)

Decimal entries are not accepted.  Don't focus on the displays and automatics when you are doing a circle to land maneuver... your eyeballs should be on the runway most of the time.  Loose sight of the runway and you are obliged to execute missed approach.

[richjb2 195]

15 hours ago, CaptainLars said:

Thank you very much for the explanation. I wasn't aware of most what you were saying.

The only question that remains though is, when I decide to take advantage of the larger Cat E protected circling area, do I have to request with ATC to avoid potential traffic conflicts? They "probably" know which category my aircraft is and expect me to use the smaller protected area of my own category.

ATC has no clue of the category of the aircraft.  They some item of the maneuvering room required just by the size of the aircraft.

At tower controlled airports where circling is required, ATC will often provide directions to circle to landing runway when weather conditions permit.  Generally, this requires VFR weather.  If the weather is IMC and circling minimums are required, then you may circle at any minimum. 

I had chance to fly this approach at the CAT C minima.  Leaving the approach course and then making a base-to-final option did work in the B737NGX sim.  It didn't work so well in the B777 sim.  I like the suggestion offered to cross over the VOR and then enter a crosswind, downwind, base, and final maneuver. This was much more stable.  That type of maneuver would likely need to be coordinated with the tower.

At an uncontrolled airport, you can make circle in any manner and use your approach category or any higher approach category. You own the approach until you miss or report on the ground.

Rich Boll

 

[richjb2 195]

1 hour ago, downscc said:

Decimal entries are not accepted.  Don't focus on the displays and automatics when you are doing a circle to land maneuver... your eyeballs should be on the runway most of the time.  Loose sight of the runway and you are obliged to execute missed approach.

Hi Dan,

I agree, but being able to display the CAR arc on the FIX page is a huge benefit when circling.  It is also a standard practice taught at the real school houses, both business aviation and the airlines.  We do this in the Collins DA2000 and CL30s that I fly. I know that some of the airlines teach it too. 

That subject came up when the Aeronautical Charting Forum discussed the TERPS change and whether pilots needed to know the circling radii.  Because of tools like the FIX and map displays, it was felt that giving this information to the pilot was important and why it was added to the FAA approach chart legend.

You definitely don't want to be heads down watching the map display.  But you wander too far away from the runway trying set up for a stable approach.  As you well know, real circles are usually done at small airports with short runways.  Giving pilots larger areas provided more obstacle protection during the maneuvering and set up for a stable approach.  Circling at the older TERPS radii often resulted in unstable approaches and/or long landings with a greater potential for overruns.

Take care!

Rich Boll  

 

[downscc 1,327]

I don't disagree Rich; however circling approaches have been around much longer than the modern avionics ability to display such data and we were trained how to do it safely without the benefit of an ND. Once the aircraft is at or slightly above the circling minimum, TERPS is going to ensure that I have the clearance I need to perform the circling maneuver plus some.  The problem arises when the circling maneuver is initiated too early and I guess having the circle rendered on a display would be helpful in those cases, and I have no objection to using all the tools available in the cockpit; however, when a well trained pilot performs the maneuver the eyeballs are going to be out of the cockpit.

I was married to an AF air traffic control officer when I was earning my instrument rating and she exposed my to the world of TERPS, fascinating stuff and there is a lot of nice to know information there but what the pilot needs to know is basically on the charts (given good training).

Bottom line is for the B777, one cannot use decimal entries to create a distance circle around a fix.

[Boeing or not going 578]

On 6/8/2017 at 5:04 PM, CaptainLars said:

Hi all,

I'd like to know if I handled this right. I got assigned the following VOR-A approach to rwy 26R at PHNL.

 

My response would be, unable, request 26L. - David Lee