Strange AP/AT behaviour on approach (VNAV/LNAV/AT) - P3DV4

[Sekkha 15]

Today I encountered the following strange behaviour (tried two times,both same bahaviour, one time with AS4, second time without AS4):

approach to LEMG to ILS Z 12 via PIMOS1DCQ arrival

 - inbound D011S everything normal, LNAV, VNAV PTH and HOLD

 

 

- as soon as reaching D011S (why does she not turn before reaching -is it a must overfly wpt?) suddenly AT announces THR and the vertical path jumps to almost 2000 ft above..

 

 

 

- ca.20 seconds later again HOLD is announced (but I have to pull back the throttles of course) and vertical path  is 450 ft above

 

- then for ca. 2 minutes AT stays in HOLD letting rise the verical path without attemptimg to recover. then finally SPD announced and VP recovered

 

 

Later on the vertical Path jumped up and done significantly two times more....

Also the other day approaching LGAV via KEA I had the vertical path jumping 8000 FT down suddenly, so decent was obviously started way too late....(But I cant get details for that right now as it takes too much time)

So whats going on here...??  Is it me doing something wrong?
Hopefully but  I honestly dont think so...

[downscc 1,327]

You didn't provide the identity of the location where this arrival and approach are located.  Not knowing that I cannot figure what went wrong since the vertical path is clearly not right (inbound to D011S is definitely not normal, you are at FL200!) and the 90 deg turn looks wrong.  Gotta provide enough information.

[Sekkha 15]

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approach to LEMG to ILS Z 12 via PIMOS1DCQ arrival

I did

[Copper. 78]

1. Aviate,
2. Navigate,
3. Communicate.

These rules apply. You should've reconciled the STAR and APP loaded into the FMC's with the Navigation Charts earlier. After you've checked the two correlate you may fly those procedures. 

 

Once you are on track, it is YOUR job to fly the plane, not the autopilots. This failure is entirely yours.

 

 

[Sekkha 15]

so in the real world the pro-pilots would have aviated, navigated,comunicated ...and landed safely (I also did by the way) and after landing they would have gone for a beer without filling a report to their company or boeing about that incident with a probable mulfunction of the autopilot.......cool !! (or if they would have filed a report boeing would have responded: "This failure is entirely yours" Cheers)

Guys, whats going on with you? This topic is not about how to react when something like that occurs. I started this topic only to try to understand why the AP behaves like that....(THR on VNAV ?? ..., VNAV starting a decent way too early so that VP jumps 8000 feet?????,.....????)

 

and another thing:

Quote

You should've reconciled the STAR and APP loaded into the FMC's with the Navigation Charts earlier. After you've checked the two correlate you may fly those procedures.

How do you know I didnt ????

[Copper. 78]

I'll answer your last question with some questions and hope that you can put two and two together.

1. On your nav chart, what are the name's of the two Initial Approach Fixe's (IAF) for the ILS Z 12?
2. What are the 2 IAF's speed limits in knots?
3. What is the Final Approach Fix's (FAF) name?
4. On your nav chart, what is the FAF crossing altitude?

Once you have those answers, were they reflected in your CDU?

There is a FMC technique pilots use colloquially called "firming up the altitude/s". You might also benefit from learning it.

 

Knowing the answers to the things above, I managed to manipulate the FMC and autopilot to fly your procedures in IDLE/SPD | LNAV | VNAV PTH from TOD the whole way down. Since I don't have LEMG scenery, I had to do a Missed Approach and circled to land on the default (outdated) airport's runway.

 

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the 747.

[Sekkha 15]

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and hope that you can put two and two together.

Captain, you are really giving me a hard time.. I am not sure if am prepared enough for a checkride with you. And maths never have been my strength (that might be one reason why I am sitting here in front of a virtual cockpit on a monitor, in an armchair, in underwear and eating icecream...instead of wearing uniform with some stripes on the shoulders and being obligated to pass checkrides from time to time)

But seriously:

If you want to be helpful (what I suppose is your intention and what I really appreciate) please be so kind and just answer my following questions, because I really dont get your point (for example: why are you asking me the name of the second IAF if you can clearly see that I choseTOLSU ? etc....)

You can find my complete route setup in the screenshot sequence and the charts I used below: (AIRAC 0217, also in the FMC)

1) What exactly did I wrong on setting up the route ?

2) Is it expected behaviour that FMC is filing that faulty route data (as you suppose) if I choose ILS Z 12 approach, PIMOS 1DCQ Arrival and TOLSU transition on the CDU? Or is there maybe something wrong with the database or the fmc-calculations (at least on my PC)?

3) Is approaching a fix with high speed (which 266 Kt obviously is for that segment) and then being unable to get the 90° turn right with the Vp jumping up 2000 ft the reason for the AT to change to THR-Mode while on VNAV descent ? Why not SPD Mode ?

4)Why did the vertical path jump up 2000 feet suddenly ?

5) Why did the AP not try to recover the rising VP by appliying thust in SPD-Mode instead of staying at IDLE/HOLD during 2 minutes afterwards

thanks a lot for your help

[Copper. 78]

Read the FCOM, fly the tutorials Kyle and others painfully wrote and watch some YouTube videos.

Keywords are VNAV, VNAV PATH, VNAV DESCENT and VNAV PROFILE.

Here endeth the lesson.

PS - your Charts - they are from 2015!

[Captain Kevin 586]

7 hours ago, Suniram said:

You can find my complete route setup in the screenshot sequence and the charts I used below: (AIRAC 0217, also in the FMC)

What's throwing me off is you say you're using AIRAC 0217, and you've shown us the charts you used. Your charts are dated August 13th, 2015, so that would really be AIRAC 1508 or possibly 1509, as these things get updated every 28 days, so you'll have 13 cycles in a year. AIRAC 0217 would therefore be impossible, as that would indicate the 17th cycle of the year '02, or 2002. The AIRAC that came with the plane when it was released was I believe 1702, so maybe that's what you meant, but I'm not entirely sure.

[icemarkom 59]

Note that Jeppesen does only incremental chart updates, not bulk as AirNav does. So, a chart from 2015 may be perfectly valid in the current cycle, unless it was actually changed.

[Captain Kevin 586]

1 hour ago, icemarkom said:

Note that Jeppesen does only incremental chart updates, not bulk as AirNav does. So, a chart from 2015 may be perfectly valid in the current cycle, unless it was actually changed.

All right, fair enough. I wasn't aware of that.

[PMDG777 231]

1 hour ago, icemarkom said:

Note that Jeppesen does only incremental chart updates, not bulk as AirNav does. So, a chart from 2015 may be perfectly valid in the current cycle, unless it was actually changed.

They're not Jeppesen charts

[icemarkom 59]

3 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

They're not Jeppesen charts

Ah, yes, sorry. This is that other thing, I keep forgetting the name of... Lufthansa thing. Anyhow, they do the same thing :-)

[PMDG777 231]

41 minutes ago, icemarkom said:

Ah, yes, sorry. This is that other thing, I keep forgetting the name of... Lufthansa thing. Anyhow, they do the same thing :-)

Yeah the Lufthansa Systems charts are LIDO I think? (I don't know what that stands for). They're formatted differently and I don't really know how they are updated, I used the Jeppesen charts.

But off topic here.

[Sekkha 15]

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The AIRAC that came with the plane when it was released was I believe 1702, so maybe that's what you meant, but I'm not entirely sure

yes, of course, that is what I meant, 1702, sorry for the mistake. The only thing I can say is that I got those charts from Navigraph while 1702 was current. So I have to assume is was the current chart at that time or Navigraph didnt update it.