kityatyi

Maximum range

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8 hours ago, kityatyi said:

Now that we know what is the situation regarding the maximum range I can't help but express my desire how cool it would be if in the future PMDG released an expansion pack with the longer range 10-tank variant... :-)

They can't make what they don't have access to.

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Random question PMDG777 - but are you an official member of the PMDG Support staff or just a guy offering opinions based on educated guesses?

Just curious

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3 minutes ago, AirCanada235 said:

Random question PMDG777 - but are you an official member of the PMDG Support staff or just a guy offering opinions based on educated guesses?

Just curious

The latter :)

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3 minutes ago, AirCanada235 said:

Okay thanks

The only guys on here that are official PMDG are marked by "Commercial Member". There are a few of the PMDG beta testers on here but I think they all have a beta banner in their signature. Alex Metzger is the only dev I've come across that doesn't conform to either of these, but a quick look in the list on the DC-6 and he should be there (I think he does the flight dynamics?).

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8 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

The only guys on here that are official PMDG are marked by "Commercial Member". There are a few of the PMDG beta testers on here but I think they all have a beta banner in their signature. Alex Metzger is the only dev I've come across that doesn't conform to either of these, but a quick look in the list on the DC-6 and he should be there (I think he does the flight dynamics?).

Yeah, he's kinda incognito. Some of our devs only really lurk, if anything, so I'm not sure we got them all on the 'commercial member' or 'verified support' lists (note that Ryan has the 'verified' thing, and I don't).

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1 hour ago, scandinavian13 said:

Yeah, he's kinda incognito. Some of our devs only really lurk, if anything, so I'm not sure we got them all on the 'commercial member' or 'verified support' lists (note that Ryan has the 'verified' thing, and I don't).

In terms of the forum, is there any difference between being on one list or the other?

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52 minutes ago, PMDG777 said:

In terms of the forum, is there any difference between being on one list or the other?

Maybe? I'm not sure. I don't manage it. I'm not sure if it's tied to mod privs or not, or if it's two separate things.

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I get that I am beating a dead horse here but the fuel provided for both the A and the B is 19,932lbs.  That is what the A version would have had available.  The B would have had a little over 33,500 available at max fuel as it had larger tanks to provide those trans-atlantic flights....and it did still need to make a stop or two on the west return flights from Europe.  If you wish to make those flights across the atlanitc make sure you make yourself available to reset the fuel load manager mid flight (not the most realistic manner but the best you can do at this point).

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6 minutes ago, xtreme33guitar said:

I get that I am beating a dead horse here but the fuel provided for both the A and the B is 19,932lbs.  That is what the A version would have had available.  The B would have had a little over 33,500 available at max fuel as it had larger tanks to provide those trans-atlantic flights....and it did still need to make a stop or two on the west return flights from Europe.  If you wish to make those flights across the atlanitc make sure you make yourself available to reset the fuel load manager mid flight (not the most realistic manner but the best you can do at this point).

The DC-6B came in domestic 8-tank variants, and intercontinental 10-tank variants. You're describing the 10-tank variant, the PMDG model is the 8-tank variant.

Full names in the forums.

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Chris,

Yes I neglected to mention the part of the optional 2 extra tanks.  Oops.  Point remains the same.  BTW... cheers to PMDG on another fantastic aircraft.  Much enjoyed.

 

Justin Stunard

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14 minutes ago, xtreme33guitar said:

Chris,

Yes I neglected to mention the part of the optional 2 extra tanks.  Oops.  Point remains the same.  BTW... cheers to PMDG on another fantastic aircraft.  Much enjoyed.

 

Justin Stunard

All good, wasn't sure if you were aware

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On 7/27/2017 at 5:54 PM, PMDG777 said:

The DC-6B came in domestic 8-tank variants, and intercontinental 10-tank variants. You're describing the 10-tank variant, the PMDG model is the 8-tank variant.

Full names in the forums.

there is some confusion here , from two original dc-6B manuals, which I have, the dc-6 have a 8 thanks intercontinental configuration with 5500 USG capacity , and this info is from the original operative manual .

 

 

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Right, the B-Variant has a Fuel-Configuration of 5512 GALs (33072 lbs), this is a true fact (Wikipedia DC-6B, sorry german only). With this the B should run over 3000 Nm with ease.

 

But the problem now is, this configuration is not activated - I don't know why. It is also not possible to activate it via the aircraft.cfg because the "Fuel Manager" don't know it, and doesn't go over this 20.000 lbs barrier :blink:. Furthermore it is also not possible to refuel the aircraft at a Standard-Fuelstation or via the Standard "Fuel & Payload" Dialog - for whatever reason.

I would recommend that in any further update the "Fuel Manager" should also can handle the B-Fuel Capacity up to 33072 lbs.

In case that this will not happen, it is also possible to adjust the range via the "fuel_flow_scalar" entry - a good start is 0.8, but I have to make further test flights. And this is really not a good solution to solve this problem.

 

I also own the Just Flight DC-6 - and there everything is correct in this matter.

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Douglas produced two DC-6B models

From (english) Wiki:

DC-6B
...
DC-6B-1198A a 60- to 89-seat domestic variant with 2,400 hp (1,800 kW) R-2800-CB16 engines
DC-6B-1225A a 42- to 89-seat trans-ocean variant with increased fuel capacity to 5,512 US gal (20,870 l)

The 1198A domestic model is the PMDG one, but based on a single surviving airframe.
This apparently has a fuel capacity of 3,332 US gallons in 8 tanks.
Some sources, including Just Flight (Aeroplane Heaven really) suggest the domestic model should have a capacity of 3,992/3,986 USG...but I'm sure PMDG correctly reflect the actual airframe that they have investigated.
This also has a reduced passenger capacity, historically it should be between 60 and 89 as above (and I've seen references to 102 passengers).

 

To add to the potential confusion, the USAF C-118 (which came somewhere between the two DC-6Bs) had 5,404 USG in 8 tanks.

Coincidentally I've been researching all of this to add the PMDG model into FSEconomy :)
The Just Flight model is very good, considering it's age and probably the best of the older AH models, I like it a lot, but...

Cheers
Keith Bedford

 

Edited by keithb77

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I would love to see the 10-tank variant coming in form of an expansion pack though.

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On 8/27/2017 at 0:03 PM, Matthias G said:

But the problem now is, this configuration is not activated - I don't know why.

Because that is not the version of the DC-6B presently modeled. This isn't a 'generic' DC-6B, what we have is an attempt at a faithful reproduction of Namibia Commercial Aviation V5-NCG, Douglas s/n 45564. This is the last DC-6 to roll off the production line from Douglas Aircraft.

There are many configuration options available for the DC-6, and our aircraft represents a specific serial number.

The following is the link to the F.A.A. Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) which gives some engineering data to describe the type of aircraft.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/3AA076D9212D45D0862577DD006B8CF1?OpenDocument

In it, you'll see that Douglas was certified to offer eight different configurations of the aircraft with eight fuel tanks, and four different versions of the ten tank setup. I have no idea if all of these options were sold, but they are certified. Interestingly, the option with the highest fuel capacity (5512 Gal) actually uses eight tanks, not ten! (p. 4) I compared the fuel quantities in the PMDG tanks to those in the TCDS and have come upon the best guess. We have a modified version of the 3992 Gal system.

Quote

Eight Wing Tank Airplane - 3992 Gallon System:

Total

Usable

2 outer wing tanks (#1 and #4 ma

in)

695 gal. ea.

695 gal. ea. (+460.0)

2 inboard inner wing tanks (#2 and

#3 main)

508 gal. ea.

502 gal. ea. (+441.0)

2 outboard inner wing tanks (#1 and #4

alt.)

431 gal. ea.

428 gal. ea. (+444.0)

2 inner wing fuel cells (#2 and #3

alt.)

362 gal. ea.

362 gal. ea. (+438.0)

All fuel tank quantities match, except for tanks #1 and #4. In the TCDS, they are 695 Gal total. In the sim, they are 360 Gal. This reduces the total fuel from 3992 Gal. to 3322 Gal.

So the question is, why? My guess is there is a A.D. (Airworthiness Directive), or an S.T.C. (Supplemental Type Certificate) has been applied which reduced the allowable fuel quantity in the outboard main tanks.

And finally, If you check the PMDG aircraft.cfg file.. you'll see commented entries for the 5512 eight tank configuration :gaul:. So the question is... what is CONFIG #A??

 

Robert Toten

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On 8/27/2017 at 0:03 PM, Matthias G said:

But the problem now is, this configuration is not activated - I don't know why. It is also not possible to activate it via the aircraft.cfg because the "Fuel Manager" don't know it, and doesn't go over this 20.000 lbs barrier :blink:. Furthermore it is also not possible to refuel the aircraft at a Standard-Fuelstation or via the Standard "Fuel & Payload" Dialog - for whatever reason.

Don't edit the aircraft.cfg. It's not going to do any good, and it's going to mess things up.

None of our aircraft are fueled via the default Fuel & Payload dialog. We have a load manager specifically for this purpose, specifically because we use alternate methods to better recreate fuel loading and use.

On 8/27/2017 at 0:03 PM, Matthias G said:

In case that this will not happen, it is also possible to adjust the range via the "fuel_flow_scalar" entry - a good start is 0.8, but I have to make further test flights. And this is really not a good solution to solve this problem.

No, it's not a good solution. Do not edit the config files, and do not suggest it to others, please.

On 8/27/2017 at 0:03 PM, Matthias G said:

I also own the Just Flight DC-6 - and there everything is correct in this matter.

So, Cessna offered a few aircraft with extended range tanks. If someone models the one without those tanks you would claim that it's "not correct?"

I doubt it was your intention, but please be careful in your choice of words. To claim that theirs is "correct" for modeling the 10 tank option somewhat implies that ours is incorrect for modeling the 8 tank standard. That is misleading (intentional or not).

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Interesting investigation Robert. I would also like to know the reasoning behind the missing fuel capacity in those tanks.

I'm always for more fuel tanks capacity..!

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Quote

To claim that theirs is "correct" for modeling the 10 tank option 

Actually Just Flight do model the 8 tank version, for both Domestic and Intercontinental models, but they  go for the max sizes (3986 and 5512 USG respectively).

I understand why PMDG went for this passenger and fuel configuration, to model the existing aircraft, though sadly it does limit range and potentially earning capacity in FSEconomy :(

Cheers
Keith

 

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On 30.8.2017 at 1:20 AM, randomTOTEN said:

Because that is not the version of the DC-6B presently modeled. This isn't a 'generic' DC-6B, what we have is an attempt at a faithful reproduction of Namibia Commercial Aviation V5-NCG, Douglas s/n 45564. This is the last DC-6 to roll off the production line from Douglas Aircraft.

According to the DC-6 Association of South Africa the V5-NCG has a fuel capacity of 5512 gallons. Its sister ship, the Red Bull DC-6 (s/n 45563) has the same fuel capacity. And that is no surprise as both were ordered from the same airline (JAT) back in 1958. This is certainly the reason why PMDG has added the 5512 gallon tank configuration to the aircraft.cfg as well. 

That leaves the question why PMDG only simulates a fuel capacity of 3322 gallons. Who knows? Maybe the last operator of the V5-NCF limited the fuel capacity to 3322 gallons due to insurance or registration reasons?

However, it would be great if PMDG could give us some insight why they have chosen to limit the fuel capacity to 3322 gallons.

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Hi, everyone. My name's Chris Powell. A few of you may know me from the lengthy investigation we had into the "CTD on landing". I'm the lead developer on the DC-6 FSX/P3D project.

V5-NCG was indeed our survey aircraft, and as you would imagine informs many aspects of our delivered simulation. But we elected to go with the POH values for the 8-tank configuration; it's worth noting that V5-NCG has the higher capacities but does not have the later CB-17 engines. 

Be that as it may, I understand now from reading this thread that there are some legitimate reasons for desiring longer legs on the plane., I think we can accommodate. If you're willing to accept the caveat that this will not be an either-or option, we can update the plane and Fuel Manager to use the 5512 gallon, 8-tank setup that V5-NCG has. Note as well: we'll retain the CB-16 engines that NCG has.

Give us time to make the change and put it through testing. This alteration is not too complicated, but it does touch a good swath of stuff: UI, VC, config, code, related systems.

Regards,

Chris

 

 

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Hi Chris,

First, thank you and your team for being so transparent with the development and release process of this wonderful aircraft. I think the reason a lot of us are digging so deeply into the specifics of this aircraft is we believe it is truly special. You guys have done an wonderful job with it.

These aircraft are old, complicated, and have a rich history which apparently finds its way into our virtual hangars.

1 hour ago, cbpowell said:

But we elected to go with the POH values for the 8-tank configuration; it's worth noting that V5-NCG has the higher capacities but does not have the later CB-17 engines.

For those of us that may wish to comply with the current fuel limitations of the aircraft, should we load only a maximum of 3322 Gallons? Will the manuals reflect these limitations, so that we can properly distribute fuel?

Thanks,

Robert Toten

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I found it!

A member of another forum was discussing the possibility to taking the DC-6B from Christchurch, NZ to McMurdo Station, Antarctica.

I was in the process of explaining why this was not possible, when I discovered the reason the PMDG aircraft has the modeled fuel capacity!

I originally observed,

On 8/29/2017 at 4:20 PM, randomTOTEN said:

All fuel tank quantities match, except for tanks #1 and #4. In the TCDS, they are 695 Gal total. In the sim, they are 360 Gal. This reduces the total fuel from 3992 Gal. to 3322 Gal. 

Note 4 of the "Maximum Structural Limits" table states,
 

Quote

 

695 gal. capacity outer wing fuel tank required.

Douglas Drawing #5717880 "Service Rework-Outer Wing Installation" describes the modifications required to replace the 360 Gallon outer wing with the 695 Gallon outer wing. Drawing #5717880-500 also describes the modifications required to replace the 695 Gallon outer wing with the 360 Gallon outer wing. Appropriate revisions to the FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual including satisfactory fuel loading schedules, changes to weight limits, fuel system changes, performance limitations, etc. should be submitted to the FAA for approval.

 

So it looks like the outer wing tanks might have been modified at some point in the life of s/n 45564. I remember also seeing why other weights were unusual, but I will have to edit this post as I find them,

I had stated that it looked like the PMDG aircraft had a modified version of the 3992 Gallon 8 tank system. However, other users (and devs) have stated that this aircraft in fact has the 5512 Gallon 8 tank fuel system. If the modification was made to that system, then 5512-670= 4842 gallons available.

Robert Toten

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