Perspective - MSFS vs. Real World

[Guest william273]

hi john, any possibility the runways are different lengths? just wanted to throw that in. i've been using the VC for a few weeks now and am not a real pilot so can't give a real perspective but to the other posts as for not seeing enough, you can only see what you're looking at. if you're looking at the instruments then you're not gonna see much else. if you're looking at the runway then you're not gonna see the instruments. you have to move your eyes/head. i'm sure i must be missing the point. i know in the books they talk about how the runway appears to look different if you're coming in to low or to high, can't remember which is which though. any possibility that the pilot in that photo may have been off the slope a bit? could be you guys are way ahead of me and probably are. gotta remember we're using a monitor and this is not REAL. william

[barryward12345 0]

If my (virtual) flying career depended on me doing anything with my left hand, then I would be looking for a (virtual) train drivers job. I am one of these people who is so right handed , that it is almost like my right hand doesn't exist.Barry

[brucek 38]

Hi John,I hope you enjoy your future flight training! I'd be interested in whether you landed the aircraft (assisted) and if so, how did it go?When sitting in front of a monitor, your eyes are focused on the surface of the monitor- regardless of how much depth the image on the monitor may appear to have. Compare that with what is virtually an infinity focus (usually half way down the runway on landing, so for a 9,000' strip that's not far short of a mile- but maybe a half mile is more average- but still much more than several feet). Unfortunately, in visual flight, that sight view means everything in how you fly the plane, especially when landing and taking off. I have never played around with the zoom settings so am unable to offer any advice. However, the good news is that as you gain more experience, that you will mentally segregate the sim and real flight so that one doesn't influence the other- and once you are able to resolve that apparent conflict then it doesn't matter that the sim looks incorrect.Rightly or wrongly (I can't comment), I have heard CFI's tell students that until they can resolve that difference that they shouldn't be using a simulation. I have always used both and never had a problem so maybe it's specific to some people. Of course, those that have never seen the real perspective in landing a plane most likely believe that what they see on their computer monitors is real and don't know any different- so it's all relative I guess. :)Conversely- when flying instruments, your eyes in the real plane are focused at about the same distance as your monitor is from you- which I believe helps in making any sim a great tool for IFR training. This brings to mind one of the more difficult things in learning to fly instruments (is there anything not difficult ? :) )- flying to minimums with the view limiting device, which for an ILS can be 200' above the runway- then removing them. The eyes instantaneously go from a 1 foot focal point to infinity, and until your mind can resolve that happening it creates a huge sense of overwhelming- and makes landings almost impossible (it did for me until I could resolve it). You won't see that issue on a monitor- but it is related to your question.Good luck with your flying,Bruce.

[LAdamson 240]

Usually .75 zoom, and with a VC for smaller aircraft. Well at least VC's for airplanes such as RealAirs SF260 & Spitfire, since that's all they come with anyway. And a combo of VC and 2D for aircraft such as Dreamfleets Beech Baron, in which the 2D is preferable for using the GPS and a few other gauges.L.Adamson

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Thanks, BruceFor my first lesson, I was allowed to taxi the Allegro, take off, climb to cruise altitude, and essentially fly it all the way to the turn to final. Due to crosswinds and some light chop, the CFI took the helm for the last half mile of final. One thing I found, as other simmers have warned, is that I looked too much at the instruments and not nearly enough outside during the flight. The CFI, who uses FS2002, also noted that's common and says his solution, should it come to that, will be covering the instruments :)That, and I held a "death grip" on the stick. The CFI didn't seem phased about it since he knew I was aware of the issue, but I found myself wondering after the flight how much an experienced pilot lets a plane "dance" when flying and how much effort they put into keeping the wings level. The CFI explained that he gives little input and lets the aircraft ride through the chop, but that's disconcerting when I am used to a sim horizon being mostly straight and level. Still, I somehow managed to steer the aircraft away from Falcon Field, keep clear of all the traffic in the area, circle around the practice area many times, and get us most of the way back home so I had the stick for about 45 minutes. Whether that's good or bad for my first real lesson, you tell me. My previous cockpit experience was with two friends 20 years back, both CFI's, who said "you have the aircraft" and proceeded to let me fly it in a rather sttaight line, for a brief time. Those flights were in a Cessna 170 and 172, and both aircraft seemed a bit less touchy about my "Death Grip".Due to an expo next week, the Allegro is booked. I next go out on the 25th, weather permitting (and in Arizona it's "always sunny, all the time").-John

[zfehr 1]

Hi John,I know exactly what you are talking about and has been part of my criticism for all computer monitor based simulators when it comes to learning bad habits in the landing phase. Your real world experience will help overcome some of this because your brain now knows what it should be looking for. I am generally using no less than 1.00 for zoom setting but with the addition of TrackIR4 feel I am able to get a pretty realistic sensation to short final and flare with the right aircraft....now if I could just get that Falcon finished up ;)

[Geofa 108]

I have a friend who is doing his primary with an instructor who only let him fly the first few hours with a rubber band attached to the yoke! A little drastic-but pretty hard to grip this way!Good luck!Geofhttp://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

[LAdamson 240]

>I am generally>using no less than 1.00 for zoom setting but with the addition>of TrackIR4 feel I am able to get a pretty realistic sensation>to short final and flare with the right aircraft.I settled on .75 very scientifically! :D When this question came up last year, I went out to the RV6, which is side by side seating, sliding canopy, and close to the RealAir SF260 in width. At .75 zoom, I'm seeing just about as much of SF260 panel, as I do sitting in the RV and not moving my eyes. When switching to 1.00 , it's as though I moved my head nearly a foot forward into the windscreen, which severly limits what I see on the panel, and creates a sense of tunnel vision. RealAir defaults the Spit and SF260 to .75 for the same reasons.It's all a compromise, since we're still limited on perhipheral vision, but I prefer my panels to somewhat match, whether real life, or in the sim.L.Adamson

[zfehr 1]

I knew Larry would do this very scientifically ;). Prior to getting the TrackIR unit I settled into .75 to .81 for most aircraft. Now if I could just talk my wife into one more video card and three side by side 20" monitors, then I'd have that peripheral vision conquered.

[brucek 38]

Hi John,I loved to read about your flight, and can recall like it was yesterday (1991 in fact) that I first flew with my first CFI in the SFO Bay Area. I too held that death grip :)Here's the deal. You have to let the airplane talk to you. You most likely think I'm crazy, but it does, and all you have to know how to do is listen to it. But if you have the death grip, then you strangle that comminication with the plane. It's whispering to you all the time, and needs just a gentle touch like you are holding a baby to be able to have you hear it. In actual fact, when I fly the plane becomes an extension of me, just like they were my wings. Planes really are living things, and when you are able to discover that by yourslelf, the you can truly say that you have flown!Good luck, please keep us all informed on your progress. And please feel free anytime to e-mail me (or PM) with any flying questions. I don't care if you can pull up the PMDG B744 and handle emergencies and everything there is to know about that complex plane in FS; flying a real C172 will be over-whelming for a while. That's why you had the death grip- and I'll bet that your area of perception focused into a small ring in front of you- all part of the body's way to deal with situations that are overwhelming. It will pass, and then you can start listening for that gentle whispering! :)Bruce.brucek@qwest.net

[Rottenlungs 0]

hehe.I thought I was like you , Barry, until I started on my PPL. Virtually all small ga planes have the throttle on the right, therefore its left-hand flying and right hand throttling. Its weird for a bit but flying is a new skill and the left hand is quickly the expert. According to my instructor, really weird comes when swapping seats whilst learning to instruct..Back to the thread. I use .6 zoom (19" monitor, mainly a VC ga flyer) because I like the field of view. Some of the instruments are a squint, but as has been mentioned, as long as the dial position is readable, exact detail isn`t needed when VFR. It seems to me like there is no one answer - I have slowly zoomed out since FS2000, where I used to use 1.0 zoom, through about .75 when in fs2002.CheersJames

[oldbear 33]

John"One thing I found, as other simmers have warned, is that I looked too much at the instruments and not nearly enough outside during the flight."Too true. On my first lesson I spent so much time looking at the clocks - and especially the VSI - that I made myself feel really sick. A bit like when you try and read in a car. One thing I wanted to ask - excuse my ignorance here - but what is an Allegro? I'm not familiar with this aircraft.Ian

[Guest Derek D]

This is something I've thought about often and Barry is quite right that what we want to do is impossible.Basically the problem is this: humans perceive the world with a 180 degree (approximately) horizontal field of view. Not only that, but our vision system isn't really a flat plane--it kind of curves around our head. So emulating this on a typical flat and narrow computer monitor is a problem. It IS possible to force the monitor the render a 180 degree field of view (this is basically what happens when you decrease the zoom value) but since the field of view is being rendered on a surface that is physically narrower than the eyeball's rendering surface (for lack of a better term) the objects will look somewhat stretched and distorted. The default value in FS is set make the object perspectives as possible; it's kind of like taking your hands and placing them to the left and right of your eye's respectively. You are blocking off your peripheral vision and the "rendering surface" has been clipped (however there is no distortion when you do this).This dilemma can be solved, but it involves either purchasing multiple monitors and arranging them around your head (thus the curved 180 degree field of view) or purchase a curvy shaped monitor that does the same thing, but honestly I can't recall ever seeing one of those outside of professional simulators.Derek D.

[SAS263 1]

Lol, I

[oldbear 33]

Thanks for the link TordWhat a great little plane.To us Brits, an Allegro is a crappy little car from the 1970s. ;)Ian