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mikealpha

shouldn't Addon developers commonly decide where to install ?

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6 minutes ago, Afterburner said:

I am in favor of LM establishing a standardized installation procedure for the future that all add-ons must follow. 

Amen to that.

Kind regards, Michael


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1 hour ago, Afterburner said:

In this regard, I am in favor of LM establishing a standardized installation procedure for the future that all add-ons must follow.

But they already did, please have a look at my post. That developers are ignoring the recommended procedure it is not the fault of LM. There is always more than one way to skin a cat - which is why there are mandatory specifications in all things IT (and everywhere else too).

Would you really want LM to encrypt the base installation files so no external installer - and no user - could modify them ever again? I imagine that many people would be very unhappy with this. For example everyone using SceneryConfigEditor or Simstarter - tools like these would simply be dead.

About PTA: shaders can be included in an external add-on.xml definition too. But I have no idea if anybody ever tried this or if it would work.

Best regards


LORBY-SI

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28 minutes ago, Lorby_SI said:

I imagine that many people would be very unhappy with this. For example everyone using SceneryConfigEditor or Simstarter - tools like these would simply be dead.

About PTA: shaders can be included in an external add-on.xml definition too. But I have no idea if anybody ever tried this or if it would work.

Overall agree with your comments. Simstarter NG latest version has the tools to support XML based installation. Wouldn't surprise me if Matt/PTA is looking at XML install too.

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2 hours ago, pmb said:

 

Amen to that.

Kind regards, Michael

I believe it has been set for the past 15 years. However, in V-4 , they decided to change things.. Why? No idea !

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4 minutes ago, joemiller said:

I believe it has been set for the past 15 years. However, in V-4 , they decided to change things.. Why? No idea !

LM started changing the installation locations and options with V2 if I'm not mistaken. I bought the IRIS T-6B a LONG while ago and it used the P3D standard for installing in "My Documents" at that time. LM has, for a very long time, had a particular focus on easing the intermediate upgrade procedures, eliminating the need for full re-install. They came close to this with P3Dv3 but the only way to future proof this process is get the addons completely out of the program structures. XML is a logical choice for the files tracking the addons. LM did not just start this idea nor have  they been deceptive about their intent.

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10 hours ago, Lorby_SI said:

But they already did, please have a look at my post. That developers are ignoring the recommended procedure it is not the fault of LM.

But even those who follow the "recommended procedure" arrive at different interpretations. I've been informed that. for example, FSDT installers seem to install all the scenery into the Documents folder! Who would want that? By default the User Documents folder is on your System Drive, really the wrong place for scenery. I know a different folder can be selected, but many people just leave it to default. 

Then I understand there is confusion between all the places AddOn XML and AddOn CFG files can be. Some in the Documents folder, others in the User\AppData folder and yet others in ProgramData. And really you can't put all the blame on the implementers as the documentation for the "system" must be one of the most complex and confusing piece of technical writing I've encountered, even surpassing my own!

Without your excellent AddOnOrganizer program I'd have given up!

Pete

 


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LM has given developers the tools, developers don't care.

You only require a single entry per developer in the documents folder, then the XML can be edited by the developer to reflect the entire library of addons provided by that same developer. If you're lazy you can even create a single entry per scenery. Addon data can be placed anywhere on the user's computer and pointed to by that same XML configuration file. NOTE: This works for everything - Aircraft, sceneries, sounds, effect files, etc etc.

It's easy, you just have to work on it and developers are (AGAIN) being lazy. Remember all those FS2002 SDK compiled sceneries sold as 'P3D compatible'? I do, and we still have them being ported to P3Dv4, no wonder people are having issues with the new rendering of dynamic lights and such... Developers (most) just copy stuff over and over instead of properly converting their models with the new provided tools, then s**t hits the fan.

So, once again, LM did their job really good but it's being ignored over and over again by people who want to live by their own rules. I am a software developer and i refuse in my professional life to live under such chaos.


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I tend to agree to Peter, I'm also not a big fan to install stuff on the system drive. It's easy though to relocate the c:\Users\Documents folder to a place you want.

In case of FSDG, you can NOT change the path during installation. So it gets forced into C:\Users\Documents. 

The most irritating so far were the Night Enviroment installers. They ask for the location of P3DV4 (SSD disk H in my case), and then install to c:\Users\AppData\Local\..., without giving you the slightest idea about it. I ended up with my system drive almost down to 0 bytes, completely unexpected.

Just relocating, and changing Scenery Library path doesn't do the job completely though. Should you ever want to uninstall things, these uninstallers use registry path entries. So you have to change them as well, and making changes to the registry is somewhat error prone. But without doing that you end up with useless path entries cluttering your registry.

BTW, how do Addon organizers deal with that ? Do they change registry entries ?

Mike

 


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One feature of P3D v4 that puzzles me (based on what I have been told) is that LM have implemented a new XML based scenery addon system that does not enable the user to change the order of each addon in the Scenery Library. That sounds a bit daft to me, considering that certain addons need to be above (or below) others in order to work prioperly. Is this true, or have I misunderstood?


Christopher Low

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9 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

One feature of P3D v4 that puzzles me (based on what I have been told) is that LM have implemented a new XML based scenery addon system that does not enable the user to change the order of each addon in the Scenery Library. That sounds a bit daft to me, considering that certain addons need to be above (or below) others in order to work prioperly. Is this true, or have I misunderstood?

I use scenery config editor to add, move, or remove scenery. P3d v4 does have a scenery order that I can edit via the xml, and orbx allows you to place FTX sceneries bellow what ever scenery you want in the scenery.cfg. So it's not true in my case.


A pilot is always learning and I LOVE to learn.

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3 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

Is this true, or have I misunderstood?

Yes and no.  :biggrin:

When additions to the Scenery Library are made via xml they are fixed. Meaning, the old way of drag and drop in the SL doesn't work. HOWEVER - there is a <layer> setting in the xml file which can be changed to reposition the entry so it really is not fixed. In addition, the Lorby freeware add on organizer does allow you to drag and drop and then makes the correct entry.

So basically, you just cannot generally use the SL as before to move things around.

Vic


 

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19 hours ago, Afterburner said:

Well, to me it is a big deal, because some add-ons (Flight 1 included) give the user no control over the installation folder of the key files. If I relocate the files from the intended folder to a different one, the add-on no longer works. Imagine if more add-ons would install some of their files indiscriminately in a root folder of the very C: drive. In this regard, I am in favor of LM establishing a standardized installation procedure for the future that all add-ons must follow. Even though it would force the developers to spend some time on recoding their installers (ORBX, to name one of them), but the benefits are huge, e.g. being able to uninstall and reinstall P3D without uninstalling the add-ons.

Whenever I install a Flight One product, the installer gives me a key file and asks me where I want to put it.  I put it in my Downloads or I'll put it in the FlightOne directory.  After installation, I move everything to my backup drive for that particular installation (for instance GEP3D).  The key file is only needed if you reinstall the product so you would want to move it to a file where the installation program is located.  I usually delete the FlightOne directory in C:\ after installing everything.  Not needed anymore.  It is just used as basically a temporary folder to install the product you purchased.  The product you purchased can usually be installed anywhere.  For instance, FlightOne wanted to install Ultimate Terrain 2 in a directory in C:\Program Files (x86).  I said, no, no.  That's that where I want it so, when they gave me the option to change the location I changed it to another disk drive like, G:\Scenery_Solutions.  I do not know of any product sold by Flight One that requires the product to be installed in the FlightOne directory.  Again, the Flight One directory is a stub for installing their product.  You can delete it or move it to a backup drive if you want.  Just make sure you locate and move your key file to a secure location too.

Speaking of Ultimate Terrain2, it is supposedly compatible with V4 now so I installed it last night and it placed all of its files in the P3Dv4 Scenery directory and intermingled with P3DV4 directories.  It then added the directories to the P3D Scenery.cfg and caused P3D not to load when I attempted to load a PMDG aircraft.  If I loaded a default aircraft, it loaded okay.  When I renamed my scenery.cfg to scenery.orig and let P3D rebuild the scenery.cfg (with the default scenery), PMDG aircraft were able to load.  So I uninstalled UT2 and manually removed the UT files in the P3D scenery folder, and all was well (not sure why their uninstaller does not remove the directories they made in the C:\P3Dv4\Scenery). Another example of an installer gone wild and not ready for P3Dv4.

Best regards,

Jim

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This is becoming an interesting and important thread. Let's hope that developers and LM read through it. Currently there is a bit to much confusion. One problem is that users (me included) want 'their' add-ons as fast as possible to work with P3Dv4. On the other hand it seems that many developers simply don't care about LMs preferences/SDK etc.until now. We can only hope that things get ordered during the next months.

@ Jim Young, thanks for the details about UT2 installation. I was just going to install it it too.


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Can AVSIM as a whole petition all the developers - especially Orbx (they are the biggest player) to follow new guidelines.  It is not a huge development cost at all - just changing directory install paths in the installer that is all.  

 

We need a collective petition or without it - it will be all noise.  Think about it, everyone is doing their own darn thing and it is absolutely annoying.

 

It is also hard to debug addons as they all are mixed in P3D directory, I can't figure which addon is causing fault at times.  Super annoying.

 

AVSIM's admin team can contact respective devs and LM to do something this issue.  Majority of us have already complained this on multiple forums (that these devs own).  Nothing is getting done currently.

 

 

 

 

 


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Although the SDK for V3 required scenery and aircraft add-ons to be removed from P3D, I do not think it got noticed until the release of V4.  FSDT was the first to use the new add-on format as they had their airport products ready to go right after the release of P3D.  Everyone else seemed to be saying, "huh? what's going on?"  I am still confused but glad Oliver from Lorby-SI came along with his Addon Organizer to help us "organize" our add-ons.

Developer's like Orbx have a lot of products and they will have to change FTX Central dramatically to load all of their scenery we purchase in the proper format for P3Dv4 and I doubt it is worth it for them. FTX Central still works for FSX/FSX-SE and they are developing more and more for other sims.  They say their regions like the Pacific Northwest are compatible with P3Dv4 and I have tested them and they do work but FTX Central has to constantly enable the scenery in the config and/or the consumer has to make modifications in the scenery.cfg to make sure they stay activated.  I have since moved the regions to a temporary folder, along with all of the entries in the Scenery/World/Scenery folder, into a temp directory and will work on bringing them back via the Lorby-SI tool or just use my GEP3D World Edition with optimized textures (and hopefully Ultimate Terrain 2).  If I cannot do that then I just will not have FTX/Orbx in P3Dv4.  Fortunately I still have FSX/Acceleration and they work great in that product.

There is nothing I can do (as an AVSIM Administrator) to get developers to change over to any new method.  Customer complaints and their wallets are the best way to tell a developer he needs to change over to a new system.  I personally doubt FTX/Orbx will ever changeover for a program like P3Dv4 as they develop for many simulators. 

Best regards,

Jim


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