KORD - KFJK 777 flying west

[Ralgh 43]

8 hours ago, Steve Dra said:

Oh yeah.  I fly out of KLAX all the time...can do the Dotss1 in my sleep, and the Loop8 is really fun.  And fun to watch off the beach at night....watch them head straight out, then "loop" around...hence the name Loop8 I guess.  (Hehe.....just checked its Loop9 now..and  Dotss1 used to be called Holtz. which is now just a waypoint within the Dotss1 SID).

Anyway...LAX has to be one of the best spotting airports in the world...Always a huge variation in airlines/aircraft.  I live close to KDFW....90% of the planes are AA (not that its a bad thing), gets pretty boring after a while though.

And based on your name, I can imagine you're very well received when you visit my hometown. 

I fly for AA so I do end up at DFW and people always ask if that's really my name. No relation to anyone famous though 😀

 

KLAX has a new departure that they use instead of the loop now. It's called the ORCKA1. It has more transitions. 

[Ralgh 43]

2 hours ago, PMDG777 said:

Huh I swear last time I flew out of KLAX the first leg was "VECTORS". Maybe it was that particular SID!

Sometimes rarely they use one of the older SIDs that start with vectors but ever since RNAV SIDs became all the rage they use those most of the time. 

[JRBarrett 3,069]

23 minutes ago, Ralgh said:

Sometimes rarely they use one of the older SIDs that start with vectors but ever since RNAV SIDs became all the rage they use those most of the time. 

Even with the new ORCKA1, there is still a vectored segment and loop to the northeast to the waypoint KLIPR. Many more outbound transition options than the old LOOP9 from KLIPR on, as you mentioned.

The DOTTS1 is fully RNAV.

I just spent 2 weeks in Houston, staying at a hotel on JFK Boulevard just south of the main airport entrance. It's a great location for spotting, as the hotel is right under the departure path for runways 15L and 15R, which are the main runways used for takeoffs probably 90 percent of the time. IAH has multiple RNAV SIDS but they all start out with vectors. 

I saw many simultaneous parallel departures from15L and 15R - one aircraft would be vectored to turn left, and the other to turn right - almost like watching an airshow!

[FalconAF 213]

Wow!  For all the "pilots" here, there sure seems to be a lot of confusion as to what a SID is and how it may be flown.

There are many, MANY SIDs that exist at numerous airports where the first "instruction" in the SID route will be a "Vector".  Normally (but not always) the SID narrative will say something like "fly runway heading (or a given heading), expect vectors to....." (the first actual navigation point in your flight plan).

Saying there is no SID at KORD is just flat out wrong.  KORD DOES have a SID.  Go to AirNav and look at the chart for it.  http://airnav.com/airport/KORD (scroll to bottom of page to find it). It's called the O'Hare Two Departure.  Every runway you can depart from is covered by that one SID, and they are ALL "Vector" departures.  You read the narrative "Departure Route Description" on page 2 to find out what you are supposed to do after takeoff.  THEN, during your clearance, Clearance Delivery may issue something different (as in a different initial heading to fly after takeoff).  But if they don't, you'd better darn well be prepared already to follow ALL the instructions given in the SID itself.

 

[downscc 1,327]

5 minutes ago, FalconAF said:

the O'Hare Two Departure.

Technically I agree with you but this procedure is never given in an ATC clearance.  The essence of the ORD2 is to provide altitude constraints at ORDd5 and d8; otherwise, it is simply "all aircraft expect radar vectors ... expect clearance to request altitude 10 min after departure."  And since all but the heavy B744 clear those altitude obstacles with ease it's hard to think of it as a "procedure."

[FalconAF 213]

I agree.  But "technically it isn't a SID" won't save your a** with the FAA if you DIDN'T follow the instructions in the published procedure and screwed something up bad enough.  It IS a published SID for a reason. 

[Captain Kevin 586]

7 minutes ago, FalconAF said:

I agree.  But "technically it isn't a SID" won't save your a** with the FAA if you DIDN'T follow the instructions in the published procedure and screwed something up bad enough.  It IS a published SID for a reason. 

If the procedure isn't given in an air traffic control clearance as Dan states (and I have no way of verifying if he's right or not), why would you be following a procedure that you weren't assigned.

[FalconAF 213]

Guys, we can argue semantics all night long.  My initial post was ONLY because someone earlier in the thread said there were NO SIDS for KORD.  That is simply false, and that's ALL I was correcting. 

What seems to be the question is if Clearance Delivery doesn't "include" the SID in your clearance, and only says "...expect vectors....", does that relieve the pilot of STILL complying with the altitude restrictions stated for certain runways in the SID?  I think not. I might be wrong.  I wonder what the FAA would say.  In the absence of Clearance Delivery "giving" me the SID without saying ANYTHING about the altitude restrictions for my runway, I would think I would STILL be expected to follow the SID guidance (in this case) and have to comply with the altitude crossings.  That's the way the Narrative for the SID reads.  Think about it.  There's only ONE SID for the entire airport, and it includes information for ALL runway departures.  SOME of the runways have altitude crossing restrictions after takeoff.  ALL runway departures will be "expect vectors...".  In this case, I'm pretty sure that if Clearance Delivery doesn't actually "give you the named SID" but only says "expect vectors", you still have to abide by the SID altitude restrictions.  The SID HAS TO BE PUBLISHED FOR A REASON, or they wouldn't even have it in the first place.  So, unless the pilot is relieved of ALL altitude restrictions after takeoff when Clearance Delivery does not include the SID in the clearance......

Anybody have a direct line to the FAA Questions and Answers Hotline? 

 

[Captain Kevin 586]

2 hours ago, FalconAF said:

In this case, I'm pretty sure that if Clearance Delivery doesn't actually "give you the named SID" but only says "expect vectors", you still have to abide by the SID altitude restrictions.  The SID HAS TO BE PUBLISHED FOR A REASON, or they wouldn't even have it in the first place.  So, unless the pilot is relieved of ALL altitude restrictions after takeoff when Clearance Delivery does not include the SID in the clearance......

This is what I'm curious to know. But then you can also turn the question around and ask, if air traffic control doesn't give you a SID and the airport has more than one of them, can you just pick one? I wouldn't think so. Of course, I have no real-world experience, so I could be wrong.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

11 minutes ago, Captain Kevin said:

But then you can also turn the question around and ask, if air traffic control doesn't give you a SID and the airport has more than one of them, can you just pick one?

No.

When you're IFR, you only fly what you're cleared to fly. The only time you can "pick" one is when you're filing. If you get it, great. If not, DO NOT deviate from your clearance (subject to AVEF and 91.3).

[achutchison 26]

#saynotokilo

[Captain Kevin 586]

25 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

No.

When you're IFR, you only fly what you're cleared to fly. The only time you can "pick" one is when you're filing. If you get it, great. If not, DO NOT deviate from your clearance (subject to AVEF and 91.3).

That's what I thought. I had turned the question around because the original question was if you are NOT explicitly told to follow the SID, but the airport has only one SID, do you still follow it. My thought on that was you wouldn't if you weren't explicitly told to do so, but Rick seems to think otherwise. You seem like you have more experience on this than I do, so I'll defer to you on that one.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

3 minutes ago, Captain Kevin said:

That's what I thought. I had turned the question around because the original question was if you are NOT explicitly told to follow the SID, but the airport has only one SID, do you still follow it. My thought on that was you wouldn't if you weren't explicitly told to do so, but Rick seems to think otherwise. You seem like you have more experience on this than I do, so I'll defer to you on that one.

I think you're misinterpreting what Rick has written.

The whole purpose of clearances is to add predictability. The clearance is essentially telling you what you are expected to do. There'd be no point to the clearance if you were cleared a particular way, and then you decided "ya know...today, I feel like flying SID X, just because."

[Captain Kevin 586]

3 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

I think you're misinterpreting what Rick has written.

The whole purpose of clearances is to add predictability. The clearance is essentially telling you what you are expected to do. There'd be no point to the clearance if you were cleared a particular way, and then you decided "ya know...today, I feel like flying SID X, just because."

Okay, so just to clarify on the original question, if the airport only has one SID, but you aren't told to follow it, you wouldn't follow the SID because you weren't instructed to do so. That's all I want to know.

[19dcavscout 39]

4 hours ago, FalconAF said:

Guys, we can argue semantics all night long.  My initial post was ONLY because someone earlier in the thread said there were NO SIDS for KORD.  That is simply false, and that's ALL I was correcting. 

What seems to be the question is if Clearance Delivery doesn't "include" the SID in your clearance, and only says "...expect vectors....", does that relieve the pilot of STILL complying with the altitude restrictions stated for certain runways in the SID?  I think not. I might be wrong.  I wonder what the FAA would say.  In the absence of Clearance Delivery "giving" me the SID without saying ANYTHING about the altitude restrictions for my runway, I would think I would STILL be expected to follow the SID guidance (in this case) and have to comply with the altitude crossings.  That's the way the Narrative for the SID reads.  Think about it.  There's only ONE SID for the entire airport, and it includes information for ALL runway departures.  SOME of the runways have altitude crossing restrictions after takeoff.  ALL runway departures will be "expect vectors...".  In this case, I'm pretty sure that if Clearance Delivery doesn't actually "give you the named SID" but only says "expect vectors", you still have to abide by the SID altitude restrictions.  The SID HAS TO BE PUBLISHED FOR A REASON, or they wouldn't even have it in the first place.  So, unless the pilot is relieved of ALL altitude restrictions after takeoff when Clearance Delivery does not include the SID in the clearance......

Anybody have a direct line to the FAA Questions and Answers Hotline? 

 

If ATC does not clear you for the SID, you have no restrictions regarding the SID. Doesn't matter if there is altitude restrictions and such with it. The SID, any of it, only applies when you are cleared for it, even if there is only one. You wouldn't follow a STAR for descent even if ATC is descending you and not cleared you for it.

 

31 minutes ago, achutchison said:

#saynotokilo

Love this, and yes I know what its referring to!