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No ones flying this plane happy holidays.

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38 minutes ago, magnetite said:

That and I'm not really in favor of any jobs being replaced by robots just to save money

The whole history of technological advancements, since the first stone tool, the first wheel or the first plough were invented, is to allow mankind to do more, by using less labor.

The concept that it's better to use more labour to do less things, is just a fallacious (leftist) ideology, that has been proven wrong again and again in the history. Luddites were destroying machinery two centuries ago. Fortunately they lost. I hope neo-luddites will lose as well, for the benefit of mankind.


"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." [Abraham Lincoln]

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7 minutes ago, Murmur said:

The concept that it's better to use more labour to do less things, is just a fallacious (leftist) ideology, that has been proven wrong again and again in the history. Luddites were destroying machinery two centuries ago. Fortunately they lost. I hope neo-luddites will lose as well, for the benefit of mankind.

Work can also be good for one's mental health. Provides them with structure and something to do during the day.

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19 hours ago, WingZ said:

OK I'm stirring a little, but aren't we actually there in reality?

Drive it to the active, takeoff.
Switch on AP, autoland.
Then drive it to the door.
Seems to be fairly common practice.

If only it were the case...

Unfortunately as things stand, that is simply not reflective of reality. The automatics may be providing some 'muscle', but the average flight still consists of hundreds, if not thousands of decisions and interventions from the human pilots.

Will automation be able to cope with all that one day? No doubt. However, I would suggest we're still some way off yet. Let's face it, we currently have the technology for driverless trains -- which travel along a fixed, predictable route with known stopping points, known traffic etc and yet still the public will only accept a very few truly driverless rail lines.

Likewise, driverless cars are still some way off perfection, especially when it comes to operation in dynamic, fast-changing environments. And of course if something goes wrong with an automated car or train -- you can easily 'fail safe' by simply putting the brakes on and stopping.

Aircraft, by contrast, have to manoeuvre in a dynamic, three-dimensional space, with rapidly changing threats and no easy "emergency stop".

Plus there is the question of liability. At present, as car drivers we are insured individually should we cause or be involved in an accident. Airlines currently bear the bulk of the liability for accidents. However, in a pilotless, fully-automated airliner, who is liable if the automation goes wrong? Would Boeing or Airbus be prepared to take on that liability for their entire worldwide fleets?

Much development to be done and many questions to be answered before we start seeing pilotless aircraft, I think.

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The problem is that in some air crash investigations pilot error was down to putting to much faith in instruments and automated systems, and not using there own judgement, who is going to be talking to the automated system.

Ray Fry. 


 

Raymond Fry.

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Bring it all on, ASAP, because we need robots to save the planet if humans are to survive.

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3 hours ago, skelsey said:

The automatics may be providing some 'muscle', but the average flight still consists of hundreds, if not thousands of decisions and interventions from the human pilots.

That's what my commercial pilot friends say, when the salary reviews roll around :)

My concern is with system-wide automated failure.

When someone tries to land his Air Canada plane on a taxiway, there's a whole bunch of guys switching on their landing lights and telling the tower he's about to join the takeoff queue. 

When an automated system fails, there have to be robust backups in place. Unfortunately handing off to humans who haven't been paying attention is a really bad idea. Ask any Air France pilot.
Unfortunately too, failures can easily be system-wide. Ask me, I regularly but inconsistently can't make my subnet talk to my smart lightbulb.

The economics of providing failsafe fallbacks for a sky full of aircraft will determine who flies the aircraft in the end.

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Perhaps any new aircrew should be sent to fly gliders first....

Unless the flying controls are rendered inoperable, an aeroplane, big or small, can still be piloted by a human applying stick & rudder (& throttle) to counteract the forces of lift, weight, thrust and drag. Physics, mother nature and the plane itself don't care if the automatics are in charge of those control surfaces or a human.

On the bright side, if the N.Korean military pilots are similarly so ingrained in rote learning then the western world will easily gain air superiority if little Kim kicks off.... :)


Mark Robinson

Part-time Ferroequinologist

Author of FLIGHT: A near-future short story (ebook available on amazon)

I made the baby cry - A2A Simulations L-049 Constellation

Sky Simulations MD-11 V2.2 Pilot. The best "lite" MD-11 money can buy (well, it's not freeware!)

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Actually, I wonder if a modern Fly by Wire aircraft is operable without electricity?
That little joystick thing looks kinda flimsy to me... 

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Imagine vectoring of all pilotless planes at heathrow?

No flight is same and not every flight face ordinary situations - combination of economics, weather, traffic, failures, emergencies. Hard to imagine automation to reach a point to robustly cover all those conditions.

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On 8/8/2017 at 9:28 PM, WingZ said:

Drive it to the active, takeoff.
Switch on AP, autoland.
Then drive it to the door.
Seems to be fairly common practice.

No one's disputing any of that. The issue most people have, is that when something goes wrong with the automation, there would be no human to step in and take control. And while pilot error might be the biggest cause of aviation accidents, let's not forget that there is never just 1 single cause of an accident. It is always a number of factors and a chain of events. And what about all the accidents where pilot error didn't play any part? Mechanical problems? Maintenance errors? Weather? These are the type of situations where a human pilot needs to be able to step in when a computer starts malfunctioning.


Best regards,

 

Neal McCullough

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On 8/9/2017 at 8:55 AM, scottb613 said:

Hi Folks,

Asiana was a pretty unique case - with a country who has a horrible safety record...

Disasters due to human error or malice aren't that unique...

  • Air France 447 (upset and fumbled stall recovery)
  • Maylasia Air 370 (probable pilot suicide)
  • Germanwings 9525 (suicide)
  • B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don (fumbled go around)
  • Air Canada 759 that just came very close to landing on a crowded taxiway at SFO.

Autonomous or semi-autonomous airliners will happen eventually. It's just a question of when. There's a technical issue and a public comfort issue. On the public side, when everyone arriving at the airport is getting there on an autonomous car or bus, that will change public perception of safety.

On the technical side, I imagine there will be in intermediate stage where there are no pilots onboard, but a pilot is monitoring remotely and can take over by remote control in the event of something the AI can't handle, like a Sully-type bird strike.

It will require massively reliable and hacker-proof data links, especially trans-oceanic, but technically it's do-able. If it works for military drone pilots, it can work on an airliner. Once the AI is good enough at handling emergencies, you get rid of the backup human, but that will take a long time. I think human remote control backup is the intermediate step.

The tougher problem will be integration of autonomous planes with ATC. That might not happen until AI is good enough to take over enough of the ATC system. And again, with human backup monitoring, as an intermediate step.

I don't necessarily like it, but I sure wouldn't bet against any of this happening. The combination of economics and potentially increased safety by removing human error, will be too compelling for the industry.

 

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This may bring up another problem not enough runways and airspace, my understanding is that for planes to use auto land more spacing will be needed between aircraft landing, and who is going to do the missed approach if an aircraft undercarriage fails on landing and not clear the runway.

Ray Fry. 


 

Raymond Fry.

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14 hours ago, WingZ said:

..... I wonder if a modern Fly by Wire aircraft is operable without electricity?....

No it isn't, but that's kind of what I meant by the inoperable flight controls. The surfaces need something to move them and it is no longer direct mechanical linkages, but FBW and hydraulics.

What i was alluding to is that an aeroplane designed to fly with in-built stability (not a modern jet fighter), will still fly without the automatics. A competent pilot should still be able to fly it. There may be no "envelope protection" so no carefree handling, but it should still be perfectly flyable.

Ray, the AI would of course realise the runway is blocked and would initiate a go around whilst checking its fuel state and slotting seamlessly back into the traffic pattern for a parallel runway or diverting to an alternate :D... what do you mean there's no on-board radar to detect such anomalies?? :blink:


Mark Robinson

Part-time Ferroequinologist

Author of FLIGHT: A near-future short story (ebook available on amazon)

I made the baby cry - A2A Simulations L-049 Constellation

Sky Simulations MD-11 V2.2 Pilot. The best "lite" MD-11 money can buy (well, it's not freeware!)

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I think I would give it a try, for sure these planes have undergone maintenance and quality check. 

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