Gregg_Seipp

For people that use both P3D and X-Plane, questions

53 posts in this topic

Long time FSX/P3D user.  I had X-Plane years ago back when I was getting my PPL and, at the time, found its flight controls to be overdone...but that was then.  These questions aren't meant to be a criticism and I absolutely do not want to be critical of either sim so I'm asking people that fly both:

  • What does each do better?
  • How is the flight dynamics of X-Plane?  Does it have realistic air movement?
  • What add-ons are essential and what do you use in X-Plane?
  • What drives your decision on which to use?  e.g. night time?, flight dynamics?, etc.

Please, please, avoid us vs. them discussion and I'm only interested in responses from folks that fly both.

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P3d has way more very good addons.

 Xp has better overall look imho. P3d still looks a little cartoon like / outdated even with pta and reshade. 

Xp needs something like as16 and pmdg/fslabs. Then, if p3d hasnt caught up, xp will be better imho

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Hi Gregg

I use several sims, and don't really have a favourite at the moment.

What does each do better?

Comparing base sims (no addons at all), I think X-Plane wins in terms of what you get out of the box. But P3D has the best addons by far, and this is for me P3D's strongest point. You can build a pretty solid sim using either platform, and the difference is between money (in P3D) and lots of time (in X-Plane). X-Plane has far better base scenery, a much better default GPS and the default planes are very good. Products are much cheaper in X-Plane, and most of the good stuff is freeware. ATC/AI and weather are pretty bad in X-Plane, and probably better in P3D, but I use neither.

How is the flight dynamics of X-Plane?  Does it have realistic air movement?

In my opinion, neither sim does a better job of the other, even though X-Plane apparently has the superior method. Many will tell you X-Plane is better, and it certainly is for helicopters, but really, I've not found them too much different. It really depends on the addons.

What add-ons are essential and what do you use in X-Plane?

I'd say a cloud engine such as xEnviro or SkyMaxx Pro. The default clouds aren't too bad, but to get the best you really need one of those addons. Scenery wise, stick with freeware such as Ortho4XP and Simheaven scenery, these make the landscape much more realistic. For planes, I don't really know what sort of flying you do, but there are some very good GA planes and heavies for X-Plane. The freeware Zibo mod for the 737 is top quality and really incredible when you try it. There are some very good payware heavies and light aircragt as well such as IXEG 737, LE's Saab or the recent Aerobask products.

What drives your decision on which to use?  e.g. night time?, flight dynamics?, etc

For me, I go for visual experience. I put less weight on flight dynamics because it's a computer screen with no real feel for the sensation of flight, so visuals are important. I can get both sims looking great and in very different ways, e.g. X-Plane with orthos and matching overlays, and P3D with ORBX airports. I can do much more in X-Plane with less, as most things work really well out of the box, e.g. No need to purchase a camera system, GPS, etc.

 

 

 

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I have and use them both. For me X11 is just another way to enjoy a flightsim and the same with P3Dv4. They are very different of course and that is what makes it fun. When you get a bit board or tired of one just switch to the other.

 

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11 minutes ago, warbirds said:

have and use them both. For me X11 is just another way to enjoy a flightsim and the same with P3Dv4. They are very different of course and that is what makes it fun. When you get a bit board or tired of one just switch to the other.

Hi Paul,

Yeah, I saw your posts over on the Black Marble threads and it got me looking at X-plane night lighting and it is pretty impressive right out of the box.  For $60 you get night lighting and a whole other sim.  I find the haze in XP to be more realistic as well.  My thought was, perhaps with XP to fly default airplanes...perhaps add an A320...leave it at that.

41 minutes ago, tonywob said:

How is the flight dynamics of X-Plane?  Does it have realistic air movement?

In my opinion, neither sim does a better job of the other, even though X-Plane apparently has the superior method. Many will tell you X-Plane is better, and it certainly is for helicopters, but really, I've not found them too much different. It really depends on the addons.

Hmmm...that's too bad.  I'd have thought XP would have ironed flight model out.  In terms of add-ons, in the big competition between these sims, the simulator that makes it easier and faster to add new add-ons is going to do better.  Hypothetically, if it takes 3 months to develop an add-on in one sim, compared to 6 months in the other, eventually one is going to have a great deal more.  P3D has been making changes but I haven't noticed anything making it easier, per se...just better.  Don't know about X-Plane.  I do like the non-flat runways in XP quite a bit.  Also, lighting, overall...reflections on the aircraft, night lighting...XP wins that round.  I'm definitely not in the mood to buy lots of add-ons and my desire to buy them even for P3D is waning...too much cost and all the hassles. 

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Hi Gregg,

I use both XP11 and P3Dv4 and value each equally.

In terms of the reasons I personally sometimes choose to use XP11;   I find that the overall flight environment (by that I mean 'being in the sky') gives a greater sense of immersion in XP11.    I feel I am actually in the sky, and weather and ground scenery permitting, I often look down and get that nervous adrenalin rush of being 15000 in the air!   I don't get that with any ESP-based sim.   I also like the fluid motion of flight of XP11.  I know exactly what you mean about it being overdone in the past, and to be truthful to you, yaw movement is still overdone.  But I can address this by setting the artificial stability of yaw very high in the controller sensitivities (and unlike with XP10, it actually makes a difference!).   It feels like flying though air, and again, as much as I really do love P3Dv4 for other aspects, all of the ESP sims feel like you're flying on rails to a degree, compared to XP11.     XP11 is certainly not perfect; the much lower levels of availabiltiy of commercial level scenery and aircraft can be very frustrating.  It's partly made up by the outstanding quality of freeware scenery available.   Many are payware level (MisterX), many are not.

If I want to fly the NGX or T7 it will always be P3Dv4.  If I want some Orbx sightseeing, again it will always be P3Dv4.    If I want a greater sense of immersion and of real flight, or if I want to fly over stunning (freely self created) photoscenery, it will always be XP11. 

Life is great when you stop comparing or judging them, and enjoy both for their own strengths.

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14 minutes ago, JYW said:

Life is great when you stop comparing or judging them, and enjoy both for their own strengths.

Agree. Though i venture to guess that some (maybe a lot, me included) would rather invest in one OR the other, not both.

Im leaning more and more to xp myself, after the recent aerosoft announcement about paid upgrades and the exponential price raise of realtraffic by inside systems.

Xp certainly is a lot cheaper. Speaking for myself, if the ff a320 is anything like the fslabs a320, im shelving p3d for good or at least spend no more money on that platform or its addons. 

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2 hours ago, Gregg_Seipp said:

How is the flight dynamics of X-Plane?  Does it have realistic air movement?

The flight model has improved somewhat compared to previous versions (9 and 10). It's less twitchy in general, although you'll find better and worse aircrafts (in terms of flight model) depending on the skill of the author. Default aircrafts have now acceptable flight models.

Some annoying bugs have been removed (like the old "propeller torque bug"), but most aircrafts have unrealistic weathervaning tendency in crosswind operations.

Also, to date I don't know any aircraft for X-P that spins 100% realistically.

Regarding the air movements (and in reference to your other post on P3D and FSW turbulence), X-Plane has a "smoother" modeling of turbulence. You can actually visualize the air vectors and turbulence moving in real time around the aircrafts when using the appropriate option ("show flight model"). Max turbulence in X-P makes the control of the aircraft very hard or impossible.

On the other hand, I've seen some pilots on these forums complain that the turbulence in X-Plane is too "persistent" or "continuous", compared to real life.

Persistent vertical air movements (e.g. downdrafts) are absent in X-Plane, except for a simplified and random modeling of thermals.

Seaplane ops are possible, but water physics are imperfect. Austin Meyer recently said that he's working on improving them for the near future.

The available demo offers all the features of the full version, except for the limited scenery area around Seattle, and a limited time of 15 minutes for each run, so you can use it to evaluate.

 

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2 hours ago, Gregg_Seipp said:

I'm only interested in responses from folks that fly both.

In my XP11 review in April 2017, I tried to answer the following questions:

  1. If I’m using FSX or P3D, should I use X-Plane 11 in addition or even change to X-Plane 11?
  2. If I’m new to flight simulation or just want a flying game, should I use X-Plane 11?

Maybe the review can help you a bit: http://flyingxplane.apps-1and1.net/review-x-plane-11-0/

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Sorry for being an outlier...

I used both FSX/P3D and X-Plane... That's why I now use just DCS World and IL.2 Batlle of Stalingrad.... or Aerowinx PSX for the tubeliner 744...

Why ?

Well, because neither P3d / X-Plane satisfied me, in all of the versions I tried, as much as both DCS World and IL2 do...

Can you do IFR with those sims ?  Well, in DCS you can... IL2 is solely ww2... but I'm primarily concerned with the closest to real replication of flight, so, those are my best choices..

Do you have World scenery in those sims - No!

I will look at AEFS2 too when it get's to it's final release version. Same applies to X-Plane 11, as soon as 11.10, with the promised FDM updates and optimizations, get's released,

but I honestly do not have many hopes...

P3D, FSX, even FSW are history ... sorry...

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31 minutes ago, Murmur said:

The flight model has improved somewhat compared to previous versions (9 and 10). It's less twitchy in general, although you'll find better and worse aircrafts (in terms of flight model) depending on the skill of the author. Default aircrafts have now acceptable flight models.

Some annoying bugs have been removed (like the old "propeller torque bug"), but most aircrafts have unrealistic weathervaning tendency in crosswind operations.

Also, to date I don't know any aircraft for X-P that spins 100% realistically.

Regarding the air movements (and in reference to your other post on P3D and FSW turbulence), X-Plane has a "smoother" modeling of turbulence. You can actually visualize the air vectors and turbulence moving in real time around the aircrafts when using the appropriate option ("show flight model"). Max turbulence in X-P makes the control of the aircraft very hard or impossible.

On the other hand, I've seen some pilots on these forums complain that the turbulence in X-Plane is too "persistent" or "continuous", compared to real life.

Persistent vertical air movements (e.g. downdrafts) are absent in X-Plane, except for a simplified and random modeling of thermals.

Seaplane ops are possible, but water physics are imperfect. Austin Meyer recently said that he's working on improving them for the near future.

The available demo offers all the features of the full version, except for the limited scenery area around Seattle, and a limited time of 15 minutes for each run, so you can use it to evaluate.

Interesting that we cross paths twice on the same day.  Thanks for this.  I'm not so much interested in spins and such as I am in the approach to landing, being moved around...keeping the airplane on path...the air starts shoving you, you adjust it back...shoves you again, etc., etc.  Which default airplane do you think I should try for good flight dynamics?  Might give it a download and try.

28 minutes ago, MarioDonick said:

In my XP11 review in April 2017, I tried to answer the following questions:

  1. If I’m using FSX or P3D, should I use X-Plane 11 in addition or even change to X-Plane 11?
  2. If I’m new to flight simulation or just want a flying game, should I use X-Plane 11?

Maybe the review can help you a bit: http://flyingxplane.apps-1and1.net/review-x-plane-11-0/

Good review, full stop.  Kind of sad about the A320 but the Saab was great news!...been wanting to fly one of those for the Caribbean.  From your pictures, it looked like the water was repetative?...which would suck for the Caribbean.  *Sigh*.

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38 minutes ago, Gregg_Seipp said:

From your pictures, it looked like the water was repetative?

So far I have not seens any water color differences in areas without custom scenery, although from time to time people write in forums that water colors are different depending on region.

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Just now, MarioDonick said:

So far I have not seens any water color differences in areas without custom scenery, although from time to time people write in forums that water colors are different depending on region.

I was actually referring to the waves.

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3 minutes ago, Gregg_Seipp said:

I was actually referring to the waves.

The look of the waves depends on perspective, reflection settings and wave height (from weather settings). On this picture (the very first one, with the Catalina) they look pretty good in my opinion:

http://flyingxplane.apps-1and1.net/atmospheric-aircraft-for-x-plane/

And in fact, the waves are 3D now (in contrast to the 2D waves of XP10):

http://developer.x-plane.com/2016/10/developer-blooper-reel-water-world/

(This type of "stormy" sea is not active in XP11, but it could if Laminar polished it a bit).

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It's no secret that XP has some really questionable ground handling characteristics and overdone prop torque which makes taxying and getting the aeroplane rolling down the runway before you have some decent rudder authority a real pain in the arse compared to P3D, but once in the air things are okay and then it is down to the aircraft itself and how it has been created which determines how good things are, for either sim. That said, the undulating runways in XP are vastly superior to the flat affairs in P3D and anyone who flies for real knows this has a genuine bearing on take offs and landings in the real world. The naff ground handling doesn't really show up when operating a jetliner because of the lack of torque greater inertia etc, but it is really obviously an issue with smaller prop aeroplanes. Of course when you are throttled back for a landing then the torque issue isn't an issue at all and so landing something in XP is undeniably a better experience when you can do so on a far more believable runway surface.

Terrain is far better out of the box in XP (with a correspondingly larger footprint on one's hard disk because of that). Frame rates for a larger amount of eye candy are better in XP too and generally speaking I would say default airports are a bit more convincing in XP than they are in P3D.

The interface of XP is clumsy in my opinion and the default keyboard shortcuts are as well, whereas MS really got that one right years ago and so the generally similar GUI of P3D benefits from that. Of course you can customise things, but to me it is indicative of Laminar not being that great at some things which shouldn't be that hard. This doesn't make it easy to fall in love with XP as a result of that, when that really should not be the case, but it does sort of act as a pointer to what the ethos of XP is, i.e. I think one is kind of expected to tweak it a lot and tinker about with things as evidenced by its plane maker, stuff for making scenery and far more tools for analysing stuff. So I can certainly understand why XP appeals to those who like to play about with stuff and this is an advantage when it comes to adding stuff because there is definitely a good community feel to it where free plug ins are concerned and that can help users to achieve a lot for little additional outlay.

Obviously there are more payware add-ons for ESP-based sims, but as noted there are plenty of things around for XP. However, XP still lacks a really good ATC add-on, a really good flight planner and a really good weather add-on, whereas these things are in abundance for P3D if you get your hand in your pocket, so its a fairly easy choice to make between the two sims if you want to fly IFR airliner operations, with P3D being the choice for that. This is a bit of a shame really because there are some very decent payware airliners for XP, but there just isn't the supporting content to make their operations believable. But this is also wherein lies a problem for XP because that would seem to make it a better choice for VFR with smaller aircraft, but the poor ground handling for such aeroplanes when taxying them and rolling for take off then becomes more of a critical issue which can do nothing but influence that choice in a negative way.

Because of this, XP rarely gets an outing with me, and this is in spite of the fact that I always buy each version of it as a means to support sims and also buy plenty of add-ons to check out where it is up to. But if I'm honest, I would say that XPlane has never failed to disappoint me, because the aforementioned are things which are fundamentally problematic with it which never seem to get addressed, principally the poor ground handling but also the lack of an attempt at ATC and weather implementation.

Thus it's not so much that P3D blows my socks off, more a case of it not having those fundamental issues which preclude me from using it, and that is a real shame because visually XP is all over P3D in almost every respect and it runs smoother than P3D too. So I'll keep on buying versions of it in the hope they get around to sorting those issues, but until they do, it's largely a hangar queen, and a bloody big one on my HD too, but it is still on there and does get an occasional dust off.

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