UTX USA with OpenLC NA + Vector and night lighting, lack of roads with vector, scenery order - P3Dv4?

[theskyisthelimit 48]

This is sortof an age old question with no real answers that i've even been able to "visualize" through scenery library manipulation, at least the first part of this..  I like the roads that you can see when using UTX.. if i use the same settings for vector (all of them on).. the depiction has less roads, esp when compared to photo scenery.  

*This is my first question.. has anyone noticed the roads are less with Vector?  (but streams and other things are increased, which i like about vector)  Is it because its a different data source and by fewer i mean secondary roads arent there compared to utx (despite checked off)

In general in my install i have the scenery library as follows (note to solve the less roads issue, i put the utx entries for roads above vector, as well as utx water to get better looking water)

FTX entries
OPEN LC (and for some reason the OPENLC_base entry keeps putting itself above the other OpenLC ones here, not sure if that matters)
Addon Airports
UTX Road/water entries only up here
Vector (5 of the 6 entries, **all vector options in the config are turned on as of now, with vector off there wasnt much of a performance gain, maybe 2 fps at best**)
UTX (other entries, like currently, autogen lighting for UTX)
Scenery\Cities entries (default P3d ones)
FreeMeshX (above default entry 1107?)
Vector AES at bottom (above base)
Base scenery

I tried various screen comparisons between UTX + OPENLC, then UTX+VECTOR + OPENLC etc.. in the end, vector looked better, but less accurate.. until i overlayed the utx roads (which results in roads ontop of roads but its minor).  My conclusion, keep both active to make the landscape/roads the most accurate when compared to sat. photos.

With this scenery order (if its correct).. i assumed that in leaving All UTX entries/features on, if something wasnt covered by OPENLC NA (i think there are gaps in various places in the USA according to their map?).. then UTX would take over at least.

I also compared lighting with UTX vs both vector/openlc.. by moving the utx lighting entry (I may share those shots later).. i'm not sure which is more realistic.. utx seems like the street lights have bigger "circles", which i dont know that thats accurate.. thoughts on this? (screenshots later may be useful to choose).. i didnt see a huge change in performance with one overriding the other though.

Wondering who else has done this same triple setup and how your settings compare.

Thanks in advance

 

[vgbaron 3,496]

As you show it, the UTX roads/water will override what's in Vector. If you have the other items disabled in UTX, then the Vector items will show.

A comment - as you show it, the FTX entries will override your addon airports - that's ok if that's what you want.

perhaps this will help - 

think of four levels - mesh, landclass, texture, vector. As far as the LEVELS are concerned - it makes no difference what order you put them in - P3D will arrange them the proper way.

NOW - within EACH level - you may have different products and this order IS important - the highest entry in the Scenery Library ( or the last one loaded) will take precedence over the others in the same level.

The fact that OpenLC is at the top means nothing other than it will override any OTHER LC for the same area but that position has no effect at all on the add on airports, etc.

Hope I haven't confused you - I find it easier to group the levels together if possible to make it easier to visualize.

Vic

 

[theskyisthelimit 48]

4 hours ago, vgbaron said:

As you show it, the UTX roads/water will override what's in Vector. If you have the other items disabled in UTX, then the Vector items will show.

A comment - as you show it, the FTX entries will override your addon airports - that's ok if that's what you want.

perhaps this will help - 

think of four levels - mesh, landclass, texture, vector. As far as the LEVELS are concerned - it makes no difference what order you put them in - P3D will arrange them the proper way.

NOW - within EACH level - you may have different products and this order IS important - the highest entry in the Scenery Library ( or the last one loaded) will take precedence over the others in the same level.

The fact that OpenLC is at the top means nothing other than it will override any OTHER LC for the same area but that position has no effect at all on the add on airports, etc.

Hope I haven't confused you - I find it easier to group the levels together if possible to make it easier to visualize.

Vic

 

Thanks yeah and I havent had many real issues.. even with things like Aerosoft San fran.. seems it still shows through the ftx layers.. if i run into addons that dont show up due to the ftx layers being overtop then i adjust accordingly.

But at this point i'm trying to descern which night lighting combination of layering is most accurate and correct for night time.  

Here is an example near KOSH in WI at night (animation)..

 

as you can see in the one or two frames where the one road is lit further to the right.. i think this one looks best (without utx lighting), but maybe utx lighting is more accurate to real life?

So to combat this i found that in able to get that particular road to stay lit to the right. with utx on i had to uncheck UT Exclusions for default scenery and if vector is on i had to disable ORBX!Vector_EXX.. i'm unsure what the EXX library does exactly.. but in this daytime pittsburgh animation you can sortof see what changes with the two..

 

[Chris Bell 165]

the illusive answer is much simpler than you think,
ORBX only brings in 4 road classes out of 10 total paved roads classes segment,

[theskyisthelimit 48]

2 minutes ago, Chris Bell said:

the illusive answer is much simpler than you think,
ORBX only brings in 4 road classes out of 10 total paved roads classes segment,

Ah nice ok, that explains it then.

So the issue i have then is trying to make the nighttime look like my one image above where the lights are extended to the right (and UTX lighting is off)..

It also seems that you shouldnt turn off  UT Exclusions for default scenery, this can make default scenery not show up.   I still dont know but i think the EXX for vector is covering certain landclasses and turning it off removes them.

So the choices seem to be to leave UTX full on and disable vector completely.. or do the UT Exclusions along with turning off Vector EXX (not probably best best).. unless there is some other way of getting the night lighting to extend without doing either of these and keeping both fully active that i'm not aware of.

[Chris Bell 165]

EXX folder is an "exclude all" used by ORBX,
anything that installs into native will be blocked by EXX folder since it sits right before ORBX scenery stack and is designed to remove all objects so they can be laid back in the way the developer see fit,

[Chris Bell 165]

until platform developers extend roads and autogen LOD visibility you can "fill in" that space with FTX random tree lights;
or use Night Environment if you want to fill that view with real vector data up ahead,

[theskyisthelimit 48]

10 minutes ago, Chris Bell said:

until platform developers extend roads and autogen LOD visibility you can "fill in" that space with FTX random tree lights;
or use Night Environment if you want to fill that view with real vector data up ahead,

So I guess it's vector restricting the LOD for the lights and I guess another option that gets the lighting the same as it is just openlc would be to just disables vector and lose the extra streams and rivers or I could just disable the exx

[Chris Bell 165]

you are mixing two different topics/elements without realizing,
land class based scenery is restricted in view; roads clips at LOD 15 by design (this is set by LM!)
there are various methods to add lights in the distance; one of them is using library objects,
which has different set of attributes when it come to LOD restrictions,

Black Marble is a landclass based system, but it covers the whole world with a "restricted" LOD view as all LC based systems comply to this restriction!

library based object scenery is different than LC based; it is also very much taxing on the system resources due to its unrestricted views,

before you ask why than not everything is made as library objects; in early days VAS was the reason why,
today its not anymore; and our Night Environment line is perfect int his scenario,

note that Black Marble and Night Environment can be made to work together seamlessly and complete each other in different areas,

 

[theskyisthelimit 48]

13 hours ago, Chris Bell said:

you are mixing two different topics/elements without realizing,
land class based scenery is restricted in view; roads clips at LOD 15 by design (this is set by LM!)
there are various methods to add lights in the distance; one of them is using library objects,
which has different set of attributes when it come to LOD restrictions,

Black Marble is a landclass based system, but it covers the whole world with a "restricted" LOD view as all LC based systems comply to this restriction!

library based object scenery is different than LC based; it is also very much taxing on the system resources due to its unrestricted views,

before you ask why than not everything is made as library objects; in early days VAS was the reason why,
today its not anymore; and our Night Environment line is perfect int his scenario,

note that Black Marble and Night Environment can be made to work together seamlessly and complete each other in different areas,

 

Slightly confused by the first part.. if as in the one image.. i can get extended (road) lights at least with just OpenLC, that being a landclass.. since this is the case how is it being achieved or is the landclass LOD not whats extended here.. just the one road (seems to be basically the one road).

Side note.. I took a look at your black marble/night environment.. and wow.. that looks pretty amazing, though i'm unsure how the two differ.. i see you can use them together though.. one is vector and one is a library?  Do the two combined just give that much more lighting effects?  And my question is.. at what cost in fps on a solid system?  I hadnt heard of black marble before.. i had heard of night environment.

I still have the general question that for those with UTX + OpenLC at least.. do you prefer the lighting of UTX or that of just ftx/openlc in accuracy terms 

[Chris Bell 165]

Black Marble is a new product we just lunched recently,
it is a worldwide road network full vector coverage for all 10 road class!
with Black Marble you will get full and real vector coverage in any location on the globe,

Black Marble is Night Environment sibling in that sense,
they are designed to work together as well as individually,
Night Environment uses a library object method which gives you the extended views beyond your Autogen radius,
 

[theskyisthelimit 48]

51 minutes ago, Chris Bell said:

Black Marble is a new product we just lunched recently,
it is a worldwide road network full vector coverage for all 10 road class!
with Black Marble you will get full and real vector coverage in any location on the globe,

Black Marble is Night Environment sibling in that sense,
they are designed to work together as well as individually,
Night Environment uses a library object method which gives you the extended views beyond your Autogen radius,
 

So with black marble is that vector road data just for nighttime i take it? I noticed on your product page you list: base, vector, 3d bridges and traffic pack as separate purchase options.. how does base differ from vector if the product as a whole is vector data?  It sounds like for good coverage i'd want to get base + vector?

Would it be fair to say that night environment would be what adds everything not vector data, things beyond the lod radius and in between objects?

Also.. with Night Environment installed.. should FTXG/OpenLC lighting be disabled in some way.. does it override the other 

 

Making a side note on my first issue i reported with the one road not extending to the right.. where it does with openlc or a weird combination of utx + openlc + vector.. seems it was isolated to this wi kosh area.. my tests near downtown pittsburgh dont reveal this anonomoly... still.. something like black marble and or say PA night environment would be a great addition (seems that night environment is limited to regions)

 

[theskyisthelimit 48]

I'd still like to figure out the details on the marble packages.. however.. in the meantime i took the plunge and tried out Night Environment for PA.. pretty impressive, though i'm unsure which is more realistic, non volumetric or volumetric lighting.. also.. i couldnt get (any) traffic working for some reason.. not sure if its a utx/p3d or some other setting thats wrong (i wanted to test out the headlights on traffic).

I get good frame rates even with volumetric.. often better than in daytime conditions.

Here is a shot of just UTX Lighting (OPENLC + UTX + No vector + UTX Lighting enabled): (not sure how realistic those UTX circular lights are)

Here is a shot with normal Night Environment mode:

and

Here is the shot with volumetric on (feels like this one gives the best distance and probably the setting to keep, beats out UTX in that regard)