Traffic patterns and erm, stuff

[Guest DanFraserUK]

Usually I just follow the instructions given to me by ATC in FS2002 for landing at an airport.But, what about these traffic patterns, base leg, crosswinds etc i keep hearing about? Can someone explain? I like landing at heathrow, so if you want to throw degrees at me, base it on that (I can take off land and everything at egll blind folded).Thanks

[Guest ThrottleUp]

This is a traffic pattern:http://stoenworks.com/images/How%20to%20fl...c%20pattern.jpgLets say you are approaching Heathrow in a little Cessna from the south and you want to land on runway 27L.http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/Resources/Physi...es/heathrow.gifYour heading would be 360. As you get closer you will turn right on a heading of 045 to set up for the entry into the pattern.To get into the traffic pattern you would get close to the airport and then turn right 090. You are now on the downwind leg - parallel to runway 27L.Once past the end of the runway you would turn left heading 360. This is your base leg.As you approach the extended centerline you will finally turn onto heading 270 to land on 27L. This is the finals leg.Hope that helps a bit!

[mgh 89]

For VFR flights in the UK the Standard Overhead Join is shown as:- Cross the upwind threshold (landing end) of the runway at 1000ft above circuit height.- Descend to circuit height on the dead side where the airport elevation is shown in the previous post (ie the side opposite to the down wind leg) while turning to fly parallel to the runway.- Turn onto the crosswind leg to cross the downwind threshold (takeoff end) of the runway at circuit height- Turn onto the downwind leg

[Guest AndrewMcGregor]

This is also (more or less, 500' above circuit is OK for entry) standard in New Zealand and Vietnam (because they photocopy the NZ regs, having outsourced all their aviation standards and regulations to NZ), but not in Australia or the US, where either a join base or a join early downwind at a 45 degree angle (i.e. 135 degrees heading for RWY36) and at circuit height is required. I don't know about other countries. Frankly, I consider the US and Australian practice unsafe, as you don't get a very good look at the field first, but it is necessary to follow local procedures.

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

I don't see what's unsafe about the 45 degree midfield downwind entry at TPA. It affords you an excellent view of the field and traffic as you approach.----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

[Guest AndrewMcGregor]

Maybe it's OK; not actually having done that (since it's against the local rules) I'm not really sure. However comparing some of the procedure arrivals at NZCH which end up being a join downwind on the 45, I can never really see the windsocks until I'm on finals, which means you have to have other information for selecting a runway (obviously, a procedure arrival means controlled airspace, which is fine). Overhead joining means you get to look at all the windsocks, and if the field is not just uncontrolled but completely inactive, you get to see the condition of the runways and if there are animals, vehicles, or other random stuff on the field.

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

In the case of that where we can't get weather from an ASOS (the majority of the public local fields have ASOS in the Spokane area) We would do an overflight of the field at 500-1000 feet above the TPA then teardrop into the traffic pattern.----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>Maybe it's OK; not actually having done that (since it's>against the local rules) I'm not really sure. However>comparing some of the procedure arrivals at NZCH which end up>being a join downwind on the 45, I can never really see the>windsocks until I'm on finals, which means you have to have>other information for selecting a runway (obviously, a>procedure arrival means controlled airspace, which is fine). >Overhead joining means you get to look at all the windsocks,>and if the field is not just uncontrolled but completely>inactive, you get to see the condition of the runways and if>there are animals, vehicles, or other random stuff on the>field.Andrew The overhead join has to be the most dangerous, outdated procedure available.Not only does it require aircraft all heading from different directions to a point above the airfield but it then involves those aircraft making up to five ninety degree turns and often blind turns.This is a mixture of high and low wing aircraft.Coming into an airfield downwind at circuit height I was nearly taken out by a student who was trying to make an overhead join under a low cloudbase at 1200 ft agl and cutting right across the down wind leg.He was riding just below the cloudbase when he was supposed to be 500 feet vertically clear of cloud and 2000 feet above the airfield.The overhead join is a monstrocity from the past in non radio days when aircraft had very poor navigation aids and had to go overhead to examine the signal square and check that they were indeed over the correct aifield.Peter

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

That was my concern with the overhead idea. In all planes you can't see below you straight ahead and in a low wing you add the inability to see just about anything below you.----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

[Guest AndrewMcGregor]

Interesting. Well, it's standard procedure here, and the stated reason is to give an opportunity to look at the field. We don't get that much traffic here, and when we do have busy uncontrolled airfields they have published procedures, which generally specify some other join. We do have a lot of airfields that get very little traffic, you might be the only landing all day, which makes it very important to get that look.I do take your point about lots of traffic arriving at a point, that can be dodgy.

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

>>The overhead join has to be the most dangerous, outdated procedure >>available.>>Not only does it require aircraft all heading from different directions >>to a point above the airfield but it then involves those aircraft >>making up to five ninety degree turns and often blind turns.I so complete disagree. All aircraft join in the same direction regardless of where they arrive from. If you are landing 09 and you arrive from the south then join at 2000' over the "09" numbers and start your descent deadside (the side of the runway away from the circuit). There is no risk of interfering with other traffic. If you join from the north then you overfly the "27" numbers at circuit height at 2000' over the "27" and circle until over the "09" numbers before descending. The only point of confluense two converging aircraft would be at the same height in a level attitude, the best conditions for visual contact. If it is a left hand circuit then all turns are to the left. It is very simple, efficient and safe with no risk of descending on top of anybody else and promotes excellent situational awareness.Base joins require the mose care, downwind joins rely on the joiner doing the seeing as crosswind aircraft will probably still be in the climb and turning. Joining crosswind also affords very good visibility an situational awareness, although at longer runways it is best to do an intermediate crosswind join (halfway along the runway) as light aircraft could be near circuit height at the upwind numbers.

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

The name of the standard joining procedure is the "overhead Join".The reason for this join goes back to the days when aircraft were often non radio, had no or very little navaids.The idea was to be in a position where you could see the signal square and firstly check which runway was in use.The overhead join does not require you to be over the numbers of the active runway.people will join overhead regardless of the cloudbase so typically if the cloudbase is 2000 feet they will scud run to the overhead.If the cloudbase is 1500 feet they still scud run to the overhead.Surprise :-) if the cloudbase is near circuit height they still attempt to join overhead cutting through circuit patterns.Aircraft join overhead from all different directions descend deadside and as stated this requires more 90 degree turns than a straight in base or downwind join.Mixing high and low wing aircraft is fraught with danger and creating a situation where more 90 degree turns are needed has to increase the collision potential.While the overhead join has its uses in my opinion with aircraft which have GPS and excellent radios it should be just one joining procedure if conditions are correct.Overhead joins should be banned where an aircraft cannot join overhead at 2000 feet and still remain 500 feet clear of cloud ie the cloudbase has to be a minimum of 2500 feet above airport height. These minimal legal requirements are rarely met.Peter

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

>>The name of the standard joining procedure is the "overhead Join".>>The reason for this join goes back to the days when aircraft were >>often non radio, had no or very little navaids.An overhead join is specifically when you join at 1000' above circuit height over the downwind numbers. Joining deadside is a crosswind join. Other airfields have all sorts of different ways of joining over the top of the airfield but they ain't overhead joins. The use of the term ovhead join means only one thing...as it should. Also, it has nothing to do with navaids, it is a VFR manoeuvre and is relevant regardless of the type of aeronautical ground station in operation. Also, I think saying mixing high and low wings is fraught with danger is pretty much a wild exageration.>>Surprise :-) if the cloudbase is near circuit height they still >>attempt to join overhead cutting through circuit patternsWhere? Not at any airfield I have visited. Here in the UK we do things properly ;o)>>While the overhead join has its uses in my opinion with aircraft which have GPS and excellent radios it should be just one joining >>procedure if conditions are correct.You what? GPS? What on Earth has GPS got to do with a join? What qualifies a radio as being excellent as opposed to just be servicable.Also, if you do your pre-flight planning properly then you will know that all airfields either have a bad weather circuit procedure or a minimum cloud base for accepting arrivals.

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>>Surprise if the cloudbase is near circuit height they still >>attempt to join overhead cutting through circuit patternsWhere? Not at any airfield I have visited. Here in the UK we do things properly ;o)>>While the overhead join has its uses in my opinion with aircraft which have GPS and excellent radios it should be just one joining >>procedure if conditions are correct.You what? GPS? What on Earth has GPS got to do with a join? What qualifies a radio as being excellent as opposed to just be servicable.In my time I have probably visited every airfield in the UK and I can assure you that we do not do things properly ;-)With GPS you have the ability to give a DME range which is more accurate than an estimation.Hence XYZ is 6 mile final R/W 23 or XYZ is 3 Mile Final R/W 23GPS also allows you to go to OBS mode and place in the runway centreline as well as a host of other useful location helps in the pattern.I think you need to check what a standard overhead join is? ;-)Peter

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

Try this:www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=64& pagetype=90&pageid=2244