Traffic patterns and erm, stuff

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

Either you are on a wind up mission, your examiner thought it was a good time for nap or things aren't what they appear. Suggest you read up on DME, grab a copy of CAP 413 and the ANO.

[LAdamson 240]

>Either you are on a wind up mission, your examiner thought it>was a good time for nap or things aren't what they appear.>Suggest you read up on DME, grab a copy of CAP 413 and the>ANO.I'd agree on advantages of GPS over DME for coming up with quick distance measurements.But other than that, I know that Peter has been flying Cessna Citation jet's and a Piper Seneca all over Europe for at least ten years; therefor I'd have to imagine that he is aware of just what DME does and doesn't do. Especially since he has posted all those excellent in the cloud IMC pics over the years.L.Adamson

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

suggest you have a look at a picture pattern (easier to understand) and printed by the CAARead each part and then we will chat about it?Fail to understand your remarks concerning DME and the relevance to GPS distance? elaborate!http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/srg_gad_oheadjoin_poster.pdfPeter

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

That looks a lot like a field overflight in the US when you attempt to find the wind indicator on field. Though we ussually fly more midfield of the runway. If we're flying over into what you guys call the live-side, we'd simply go out further than the traffic pattern should be and start a descending tear-drop to make our 45

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

JohnPractically and in reality as well as historically most overhead joins are midfield or to the point where the NDB or GPS referance point is located.Historically it was to a point where you could see the signal square and find out which runway was in use in non radio aircraft or airfields with no tower facilities.Even in the CAAs literature they are contradictory firstly staing that you should join overhead the landing runway end then stating that if you dont know which runway or become confused you should circle overhead ;-)Any procedure which involves aircraft making needless 90 degree turns has to be hazardous especially where low and high wing aircraft are mixed together.To complicate matters even further many airfields use two circuit heights. One for slow singles another for faster twins and jets.practically airfields do not like faster twins or jets involved in overhead joins and usually give a left base, downwind or straight in approach but there again I dont suppose Divergent Phugoid has flown anything faster than a 150.Peter

[mgh 89]

The allowable type of join is often more complicated and in the UK is may be specified in the AIP - often in "2.20 Local Traffic Regulations" or "2.22 Flight Procedures". Many aerodromes are not available to aircraft unable to communication by radio,Not all aerodromes have specific joining instructions but examples of joining are:Duxford (EGSU) where there are no overhead joins to assist "in deconfliction of circuit patterns"Bembridge (EGHJ) where when gliders are operating "joining aircraft are to overfly the aerodrome at 1500 QNH and the runway QDM. When over the upwind end of the runway turn left or right (depending on the circuit direction) to level at crcuit height 1000 ft QFE on crosswind leg prior to turning downwind"Redhill (EGKR) "If required to join overhead enter the ATZ on the runway QDM remaining within the fixed-wing circuit area. When instructed descend to circuit height and join the visual circuit pattern"Shoreham (EGKK) "Unless otherwise instructed aircraft joining the circuit will overfly the areodrome maintaining 2000 ft aal, until instructed to descend to circuit height on the inactive (dead) side of the runway in use and joun the circuit by crossing the upwind end....Aircraft joining direct to the crosswind leg should arrange their flight track over the upwind end of the runway-in-use, ie in the same position as if approaching it from the '"deadside'

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

Yes indeed. I already alluded to this with my earlier comment "Joining crosswind also affords very good visibility an situational awareness, although at longer runways it is best to do an intermediate crosswind join (halfway along the runway) as light aircraft could be near circuit height at the upwind numbers."Most runways aren't really long enough so the "intermediate crosswind join" is less well known. Larger fields are often ATC and so you would be vectored onto a right or left base. But there are some large AFIS or A/G fields where you are not under control of anything other than the airfields published joining procedures (if any). It is often unadvisable to join base or straight in with other aircraft in the circuit and unless you are visual with crosswind or t/o traffic a downwind join can result in a few hasty manouevres. This is where the overhead join allows to you take a good look around before you descend and I complete agree with the CAA, if you are disoriented circle until you have your bearings.The mixing of high and low wing is only really a problem if a/c are descending at different points in a busy circuit, with the overhead join everyone starts the descent at the same point so the risk to comparatiely negligable.In the UK we have a dedicated radio frequency for unmanned fields (not quite the same as UNICOM) so traffic can communicate position and intention at the key reporting points in the circuit. Again, an overhead join in this case is useful if you can hear the other aircraft(s) but can't see it(all of them).

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

UNICOM is semi-dedicated, it ussually covers several fields in the area unless the field is a notoriously congested uncontrolled field then it will have it's own readio frequency. Standard phrasiology for uncontrolled fields in the US is field name, your plane and tail number, approxamate distance and direction, altitude, intentions, then the field name. I.e. "Deer Park Traffic, Cherokee One-One-Three-November-Delta three miles south west of the field at four thousand five hundred, inbound to overfly the field, Deer Park Traffic." The field is said twice incase someone comes on the frequency part way into your communication or spaced the field name and is wondering, "Did he just say Deer Park?"If you are disoriented into a US field, you probably didn't look at the airport in the Airport/Facility Directory. I've ussually got a diagram drawn out on my kneeboard if the A/FD has it drawn or atleast bassic information such as TPA, runways dimentions and directions and traffic patter directions for the runways, as well as airport elevation.In the US you are not required to land into the wind at an uncontrolled airfield, what you do is your choice, but you do not want to interfere with traffic in the area. Voice communications are not required but recommended, all aspects that ag-pilots in our area seem notorious for (I know, I know, it's not most of them, but I've been put in dangerous situations by atleast 3 that shot a straight in final under me while I was on final).At uncontrolled fields; where you can easily see the sock (I have yet to see a tetrahedron or anyother windmarker in my area), get weather information from an ASOS/AWOS, or see current traffic direction in the pattern; you would just enter the pattern on a 45 for the downwind (a crosswind join was never even mentioned in groundschool) at TPA to stay out of anyones blindspot and if you're a low-wing to keep the traffic pattern out of yours.----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

>>If you are disoriented into a US field, you probably didn't look at the >>airport in the Airport/Facility Directory. I've ussually got a diagram >>drawn out on my kneeboard if the A/FD has it drawn or atleast bassic >>information such as TPA, runways dimentions and directions and traffic >>patter directions for the runways, as well as airport elevation.Basic text book stuff. We can't choose our mistakes, we can only make them less likely to happen and your planning methodology is a step in the right direction, but that is all. Not being mentally prepared for screw ups only serves to compound problems when they do occur. If you are mentally geared up to abort a manouevre, then IMHO the chance of you attempting to see it through to the bitter end is reduced by several orders of magnitude. Saying that you only get disoriented because you didn't have the plate on your kneepad fails to account for the veritible myriad of other things things, that added together, can make a 'simple' approach at best embarrasing and at worst...well you know.

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

I guess I take for granted my natural ability to take a map and convert it into a 3D image in my head. So far, I haven't found a field that has disoriented me, my diagrams on my kneeboard include all known information of the field: location of windsocks, obsticles in the vincinity, and roads near it, etc. My training has taught me to run by the rule of three: Have atleast 3 distiguishable features to identify something. IFR in approaches, I've gotten disoriented on NDB approaches quite a bit lately. I'm also blessed with flying in a region with a lot of uniquely identifiable geological features. The only few times I've come to an airport disoriented was because I failed to do my research of the field before hand and was at the last second digging in my flight bag to grab my AF/D. Boy was that embaressing. :-lol----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

You might need a DME/DME crosscut fix realtive to your position and the point I've made. Good luck with the NDBs!

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

DME/DME crosscut fix? That's a term I've never heard of in the States.----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

Tune into two seperate DMEs. On the chart draw a circle of the indicated radius for each DME. Where the circles cross is where you were. It is the most accurate pos fix technique using nav aids.

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

Hmm... Sounds semi-accurate, it would give 2 possible positions. I've learned VOR cross-refs, find the radials you're on on two VORs.----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

You got me, I was being a smartass and so humble pie is the order of the day! I was actually thinking along the lines of updating a position manually as per my exam; you know where you were so only one of the intersections is possible. As far as I know an RNAV system like a 737 FMS will use a number of DMEs (the notation is still DME/DME). The FMS will also work with two pairs of VOR/DME as the next most accurate followed by VOR/VOR before falling back on the IRS. The DME accuracy is something like 1.25% + 0.25nm so it is more accurate than a VOR at +/-5deg (even though VORs are seldom that inaccurate).