Before I purchase W&F, just wondering if it's worth while. I already have Active Camera and like the VC and 3D aircraft interior views available with it. So, I would onlu use W&F for features that are not offered in AC.Looking at that big B744 wing in spot view, it really looks great from a distance.Thanks- Bruce.

>Before I purchase W&F, just wondering if it's worth while. I>already have Active Camera and like the VC and 3D aircraft>interior views available with it. So, I would onlu use W&F>for features that are not offered in AC.>>Looking at that big B744 wing in spot view, it really looks>great from a distance.>>Thanks- Bruce.>>The difference between Wing Views with Active Camera and W&F is AC requires the wings to be built into the Virtual Cockpit 3D model. This obviously increases the poly count of the model, which will inevitably affect performance of the aircraft. The 2 plus sides for this approach is that if there is also a virtual cabin, you can get a view angle looking out a window, instead of just the wing itself. the other plus, depending on your point of view, is it will use the internal aircraft sounds. This can also be a negative, since some aircraft like the LDS 767 or PMDG 744 dramatically reduce internal engine sounds, to create a realistic cockpit environment. This of course is unrealistic from a passenger viewing point as the engine sounds are clearly audible in reality. W&F though accomplishes wing views using an external spot view. This is done by detaching the view from the subject view giving complete freedom in angle of view. This allows you to set up your viewing position inside the fuselage, which is what you would do to set up your wing view. Another thing you could do, since the view is detached, is set up a control tower view, with complete 360x360 viewing axis for AI Plane spotting. Since the view is accomplished using the external spot view, no additional resources are required, this means, you can get wing views on virtually all aircraft, whether or not the model was designed for them. The 2 downsides, are basicly the opposite as the pluses of those for Active Camera. You will only get a view of the wing, anf not though the window of a virtual cabin. Since the view is external, you will get the sound of the external engines which may be unrealisticly too load.Since you have already have AC you will have to remap view point keys in AC to be able to use W&F. Please note though, some have reported other incompatibilities, between the 2 which so far I haven't run in to. I toggle between them using the keypads / and * keys. Hpe this helps!

Thanks Tom, much appreciated."....you will have to remap view point keys in AC to be able to use W&F." That sounds easy enough, I gather from the AC pull-down menu?Thanks again, Bruce.

>Thanks Tom, much appreciated.>>"....you will have to remap view point keys in AC to be able>to use W&F." That sounds easy enough, I gather from the AC>pull-down menu?>>Thanks again, Bruce.>>Yes! It's mostly the define view mode keys as well as the AI spotting keys.

Thanks Tom.Bruce.

Tom,I am curious whether the wing view set up with walk and follow allows the camera to move in tandem with the aircraft--ie., when the aircraft banks, does the view stay in the same position/angle relative to the wing?I do need to correct one item--wing views do not add to the poly count of the model displayed. Certainly they add to the model size, but not to the work MSFS has to do if one compares to the work in rendering the spot view. Display is an important factor, because MSFS renders what's displayable in your specific view. If you're in spot view, it will only render what's displayable (iotw--the external model and any interior parts that were built into the exterior model). If you're in the VC, MSFS renders only what's displayable for the VC/interior model. Since many designers add wing views and only wing views to their VC/Interior model, performance may actually be increased vs. using a program like W&F to emulate the wing views, as other parts of the exterior model may fall into view.-John

Good question John- I can recall in older versions (much!, before the advent of wingviews and VC's) of FS, zooming in a spot view to look at wings just t see them disappear in a bank. I'll look forward to this answer too.Bruce.

>Tom,>>I am curious whether the wing view set up with walk and follow>allows the camera to move in tandem with the aircraft--ie.,>when the aircraft banks, does the view stay in the same>position/angle relative to the wing?>>I do need to correct one item--wing views do not add to the>poly count of the model displayed. Certainly they add to the>model size, but not to the work MSFS has to do if one compares>to the work in rendering the spot view. Display is an>important factor, because MSFS renders what's displayable in>your specific view. If you're in spot view, it will only>render what's displayable (iotw--the external model and any>interior parts that were built into the exterior model). If>you're in the VC, MSFS renders only what's displayable for the>VC/interior model. Since many designers add wing views and>only wing views to their VC/Interior model, performance may>actually be increased vs. using a program like W&F to emulate>the wing views, as other parts of the exterior model may fall>into view.>>-JohnFirst, yes the wings do move in tandem with the aircraft in banks, same as AC. As for the second part, the issue is not the performance of the aircraft while viewing the wings, but the added resources adding them to aircraft that in addition to the wing views has a virtual cockpit and or cabin. This is the reason PMDG chose not to include them in the 744. That aircraft right now is tough on FPS in the VC if you don't have a high end system now. If they added wing views to the interior VC model, it would make it worse. W&F eliminates this problem, since it views the exterior model which obviously already has the wings modeled, so no additional resources is required.

"First, yes the wings do move in tandem with the aircraft in banks, same as AC."Not quite what I meant. When you are a passenger and you are looking out the window, does your viewpoint move with the aircraft when W&F is used in spot view? For instance, if I am looking at the wing in a real aircraft and the aircraft goes into a 90 degree bank, then my eyes instead of looking toward the horizon will be looking straight "down the wing" at the ground. I am wondering if W&F does this, or whether you just see the wing bank out of view while your perspective remains fixed on the horizon.As for wing views claiming resources, all I can say (and I understand what you're saying now) is even on a P3/800, wing views in a VC have never soaked up resources unless they are visible while the gauges are visible. I run some of Eaglesoft's bizjets on my system--and their gauges soak up my resources quite a bit. But as soon as I pan away from the panel, my performance nearly doubles. MSFS doesn't render anything you can't "see".-John

Be aware that W&F has a reputation for incompatibilities with other aspects of FS9. In my case it produced display corruption whenever I had AI enabled and there is also an incompatibility with Reality XP Garmins. I'm still very annoyed that PMDG did not include wingviews in the internal model of their 747 forcing folks to buy a buggy program like W&F if they want wingviews. I remain unconvinced at their protestion about wingviews being too resource intensive to be included.Bruceb

Not quite what I meant. When you are a passenger and you are looking out the window, does your viewpoint move with the aircraft when W&F is used in spot view? For instance, if I am looking at the wing in a real aircraft and the aircraft goes into a 90 degree bank, then my eyes instead of looking toward the horizon will be looking straight "down the wing" at the ground. I am wondering if W&F does this, or whether you just see the wing bank out of view while your perspective remains fixed on the horizon.Yes the viewpoint does move with the aircraft. If you bank 90 degree you would be looking straight down the wing at the ground.

>Be aware that W&F has a reputation for incompatibilities with>other aspects of FS9. In my case it produced display>corruption whenever I had AI enabled and there is also an>incompatibility with Reality XP Garmins. I'm still very>annoyed that PMDG did not include wingviews in the internal>model of their 747 forcing folks to buy a buggy program like>W&F if they want wingviews. I remain unconvinced at their>protestion about wingviews being too resource intensive to be>included.>>Bruceb>Like I said, some say there is incompatibilities. Me? I haven't found 1 once I remapped the define view keys of AC!! As for AC Wing views taking up additional resources, that is easy to demonstrate. Here are 2 identical screenshots 1 from a PMDG 737-700 with VC Flightdeck only, the other, same aircraft, except it include the wing views and cabin. Test system specs. P4 3.8Ghz 2GB mem, GeForce 7800GT video card. Both shots positioned at Runway 31L KJFK (Simflyers) Video card settings, 4Xs AA, 8X AF. FS settings FPS set unlimited for this test. Weather set to clear skies, 120Mi visibility set in Hardware Weather. Terrain detail sliders to the right, as well as scenery detail, and autogen. No dynamic scenery and Traffic turned off. The first shot is the VC only model which fps ranged from 17-22, Screenshot shows 20. The second shot is the 737 model with VC+Virtual Cabin+Wing views. FPS ranged from 10-14 Screenshot shows 12.2. My argment, is why PMDG did they include a virtual cabin in the 744? I would prefer just the flight deck for performance. Cap't Sim seems to have done the same with the 757, (Virtual Cabin, no Wing Views. To their credit, though, they are polling the community on their forum now on what they prefer, presumably for a possible future change in design. Right now Wing Views has a slight lead or virtual cabin, which surprises me why it's so close. Does people really want a virtual lavatory? PMDG 737-700 VC Flight deck onlyhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/144334.jpgPMDG 737-700 VC + Virtual Cabin + Wing Viewshttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/144335.jpg

"Yes the viewpoint does move with the aircraft. If you bank 90 degree you would be looking straight down the wing at the ground."Thanks--sounds pretty impressive to me!

Adding a virtual cabin to the mix changes the discussion--we were talking just about wing views. If you include a virtual cabin, even if it isn't in view, you're talking about a ton of textures that the system is trying to have at the ready. Not being familiar with the PMDG 737, I also don't know if there's any functionality in the virtual cabin that may be using resources, such as special animation or some type of gauge functionality. Wing views alone--they don't have that great a hit and most aircraft I have show no measurable hit on performance--and a P3/800 is going to know it before any other PC will :)There is a "see-self" cfg parameter that will actually turn off wing views in aircraft like the IFDG A320, etc when set to zero... That would probably be an easier way to measure the hit. Sorry to say it also turns off the entire VC so in aircraft that have wing views with VC, there would be no way to measure the impact of the wing views on the VC.Speaking of virtual cabins, one of the best for an airliner I have ever seen was on the VANS DC-9 series--they did a great job.-John

If there has to be a choice then wingviews certainly has it as I can see no point in having a virtual cabin if you can't see any wings from 16A - in fact it would be extremely disconcerting. Ive taken up this debate again because I've recently started flying my PMDG 737 with virtual cabin and wingviews! However the LDS 767 solution is an acceptable compromise if resources are tight - ie wingviews without the virtual cabin.Bruceb