FSlabs320

[skelsey 765]

15 minutes ago, mpw8679 said:

a small weekly update, or in some cases once a month would go a long ways with PAYING customers.  It would take a whole 5 minutes to post a quick up date from time to time.  How hard is that?  

The difference is that nobody is a "paying customer" for a product that hasn't been released yet.

To extend the analogies above, it would actually be like arriving at an Audi dealership in a 10 year old A3 and demanding to know the precise date that Audi are going to release their next design. Or turning up at a restaurant and saying "I had a meal here a few weeks ago. Therefore I want to know when you are going to publish a new menu!". Or buying a book and demanding to know when the author is going to finish writing the next one.

Could there be more updates, from any particular developer? Possibly, but the honest truth is that there's not always anything much of interest to report. Sometimes progress may be slow for a variety of reasons, not always within the control of the development team, and sometimes there'll be lots of progress. Either way, it doesn't get the end product out any quicker, and whoever writes said update is inevitably not going to be coding/testing/whatever whilst they are doing so.

In all honesty, when there is something to show it generally gets shown, whether it's FSLabs, PMDG, Qualitywings or anybody else. If nothing is shown it doesn't mean that nothing is happening: it's far more likely that something very important, but not very sexy is being worked on. To give one small example, optimisation work, for instance, is clearly something which we all appreciate and benefit from but it can take a long time (both development and testing) and it's not really something that can be shown in a picture or described meaningfully in an update. Likewise isolating intermittent or otherwise difficult to pin down faults/crashes again is very important but not very exciting. Waiting for external parties (LM, for example) to respond to issues raised etc can take time and in that sort of situation there's generally not much that can be said in terms of "update" on either a practical or professional level.

As has already been said, 99.9% of FS developers are working in their spare time, often collaborating with co-developers, testers etc who are spread across the globe in different time zones and each also working in their spare time. Release dates are thus far from an exact science. In the nicest possible way -- most, if not all, of these people (from all the major developers) are not doing it because they have to do it, they are doing it because they share the same passion for flight simulation as all of us here do and because they want to create something special which we all want to see and enjoy, not some half-baked product rushed out to hit a release date in order to rake in the cash.

It is not like pumping out a car on a production line: it is more akin to creating a work of art. The Sistine Chapel wouldn't be quite the same if Michaelangelo had just slapped on some Dulux in order to get it done quickly!

[mpw8679 428]

52 minutes ago, skelsey said:

The difference is that nobody is a "paying customer" for a product that hasn't been released yet.

To extend the analogies above, it would actually be like arriving at an Audi dealership in a 10 year old A3 and demanding to know the precise date that Audi are going to release their next design. Or turning up at a restaurant and saying "I had a meal here a few weeks ago. Therefore I want to know when you are going to publish a new menu!". Or buying a book and demanding to know when the author is going to finish writing the next one.

Could there be more updates, from any particular developer? Possibly, but the honest truth is that there's not always anything much of interest to report. Sometimes progress may be slow for a variety of reasons, not always within the control of the development team, and sometimes there'll be lots of progress. Either way, it doesn't get the end product out any quicker, and whoever writes said update is inevitably not going to be coding/testing/whatever whilst they are doing so.

In all honesty, when there is something to show it generally gets shown, whether it's FSLabs, PMDG, Qualitywings or anybody else. If nothing is shown it doesn't mean that nothing is happening: it's far more likely that something very important, but not very sexy is being worked on. To give one small example, optimisation work, for instance, is clearly something which we all appreciate and benefit from but it can take a long time (both development and testing) and it's not really something that can be shown in a picture or described meaningfully in an update. Likewise isolating intermittent or otherwise difficult to pin down faults/crashes again is very important but not very exciting. Waiting for external parties (LM, for example) to respond to issues raised etc can take time and in that sort of situation there's generally not much that can be said in terms of "update" on either a practical or professional level.

As has already been said, 99.9% of FS developers are working in their spare time, often collaborating with co-developers, testers etc who are spread across the globe in different time zones and each also working in their spare time. Release dates are thus far from an exact science. In the nicest possible way -- most, if not all, of these people (from all the major developers) are not doing it because they have to do it, they are doing it because they share the same passion for flight simulation as all of us here do and because they want to create something special which we all want to see and enjoy, not some half-baked product rushed out to hit a release date in order to rake in the cash.

It is not like pumping out a car on a production line: it is more akin to creating a work of art. The Sistine Chapel wouldn't be quite the same if Michaelangelo had just slapped on some Dulux in order to get it done quickly!

Yes I do see your point, but if I knew I had customers waiting to pay for a product I was developing I would make every effort to keep them informed.  It's called customer service.  In my line of work if I told a customer "it will be done when it's done" I would be out of a job.  A little communication goes a long ways.  And I don't care if I haven't paid for the unreleased product.  I should still be considered a paying customer.  It's called good business practice.  I have spent a lot of money supporting and buying products from these developers thru the years.  I don't expect attitude when asking for a simple update on how things are progressing.  Just a simple response letting everyone know the project is still progressing is good enough for me. If they don't like it don't announce future projects, stay off the forums, or find a different career.  

[Nyxx 6,993]

Simon to me it's nothing to do with release dates, it will be ready when its ready.

its about how FSL communicate. You say we are not paying customers because we don't have the v4 version yet. So many of us have bought the fsx version and or the P3d version if that does not make us customers of FSL, just what does? It's also a free upgrade so it's impossible for us to becoming a paying customer in your context! The v4 upgrade is free to your customers.

key word customers. 

As a customer and your analogies I will with due respect totally disagree because like I have said it's not about release dates it's about communication. 

But if the stance is am not a paying customer then I have no right to inquire about anything or respect a reply. 

Fantastic!

Next time a customer of mine ring up about a job am doing for them but since I take no deposit, I will say your no paying customer so.....

also simon as you personally know I think there is no better product than FSL A320, I just wish your customer care was on the same level.

Here is a perfect e.g. I asked about if the new v4 is going to contain 4096 textures. No one from FSL replied. Until Lefteris replied "OK - this thread is getting too personal and accusations are starting to fly. I am locking." All he had to do was say" we will have great news on that subject   soon." Less words and a reply to the question. But no ,a longer reply and the normal locked topic.

Sad really.

https://forums.flightsimlabs.com/index.php?/topic/13511-will-the-p3d-v4-come-with-4096-vc-textures/

 

 

[Skywolf 992]

Everyone lets all calm down.  I have a feeling that this thread is almost gone off course.  Fslabs already posted in their forums that they are testing the bird in p3dv4.  That alone is the big news, and lot of developers are waiting for P3D 4.1 release from LM, as it includes fixes and some new items.

I am not taking any side (customer or developer) - but from being neutral it can get annoying for developer to get emails regularly asking the same question - "Is it ready?" - remember "Are we there yet" conversation when you drive with kids (I do that to annoy my girl when she is driving by saying "are we there yet" when we are going to dinner - trust she gets annoyed lol)

 

And on the other side, Developers can improve their communication skills.  Speaking nicely goes a long way and cements client's repeat business.  I dunno why many developers have Dilbert complex (just can't communicate properly).  Maybe we need to hire the guy from the Officespace Movie talking to the customers as he takes the specs from customers and discusses with the engineers (in this case developers) - Remember him - he has people skills lol.

 

Everyone have a great day and be super grateful that we all have entered the 64bit age of simulation and all all these new products are coming

 

 

[Zimmerbz 168]

I didn't mean to open a can of worms. Sorry!   😳

[ZKOKQ 984]

I agree with David. When you want our buisness, we are treated like royalty, as soon as money has changed hands, we become a bloody nuisance. If you provide a forum for after sales service, you have to put up with the garbage that comes with it. If you don't, shut it down and use twitter lol

[fluffyflops 1,858]

I'll agree  with David.  He's right.  You can see why David owns a successful business that understands the very basics of customer service.  The customer is king,  they maybe bitherling idiots but they are king.  The customer maybe wrong,  but they are king. They put food on your table,  and the roof over your head. What they also do is tell other people about your product whether it's good or bad.  it's all about how you deal with the customer and your perceived market image.

Ill give you a few of my examples,  when I was cabin crew at Virgin when you went out with that drinks trolley you would ask every row of passengers

"would you like a drink from the bar?"

To which the punters would reply 

"what have you got?"

Now to me doing the job it's bloody obvious what I've got, it's a bar.  Now you would really really really really wanted to reply 

"its a bar,  you stupid fool,  what do you think I've got"  Or  "not all day, choose a bloody drink"

But no because they are the customer they are king,  so you replied 

"juice,  soft drinks,  water"   now this would happen every flight about 200 times a day,  it was infuriating,  but it's the job. You have the give the punters a bone 🍖  even if they are fools.

I always said on my last flight I'd tell one off the passengers to sod off, I never did.

Another...

When I worked In Occ for easyJet we would get calls from crew every 5 mins asking where the car taxi pick up point was In various locations.  All the locations where on the company intranet called "inside".   So all the crew had to do was look it up,  but no it quicker for then to call us and ask.

We would get on average 20 calls a day about taxi pick up points (I remember one of the fsl team ringing me up a couple of times and asking) it was just wasting our time, but... The crew where our "customers" so every time we politely told them the pick up point when all you wanted to do was to tell them to bugger off.  They where wasting our time,  time that could of been spent working on the rosters.  (Very similar scenario to working on the realease of the 320 insted of making statements customers advising when it's coming.)

I've even heard a few people have a go at the pilots for calling up and asking,  to which I would whisper in their ear

"mate,  the crew are idiots, but humour them, just  give him the pick up point, it's your job, it's really annoying i know. But it's your job" 

The same here with a realease date, it's annoying,  and the customer is being a pain in the bottom  by constantly asking. But they are king, give them a bone 🍖 it will keep them sweet and it pays in the end.

The point im making here and also David is too is the customer is a pain in the bottom, they don't know what's in your bar, they can't be bothered to check the taxi pick up list, and they whine about a release date for the 320... But they pay your salary.

It's heart breaking in this caper to see how computer programmers and people who don't work with the public have no customer service skills at all. 

A quick statement, once a month is all thats needed... No brainer.  Its logic verses emotion and thats why emotion always gets sales and keeps people happy, something that computer programmers, pilots and people that sit behind a desk all day dont get.

 

[bakerman 31]

Pete

2 hours ago, tooting said:

A quick statement, once a month is all thats needed... No brainer.  Its logic verses emotion and thats why emotion always gets sales and keeps people happy, something that computer programmers, pilots and people that sit behind a desk all day dont get.

this is a great post! I agree in every point you wrote there. So what do you think as owner of a bakery I have to deal with the customers
if we don't do right ..... by by business .... !! But the whole thing is just a other World!

Bruno

[gman1986 14]

When the V4 version eventually gets realeased, will it be free for previous P3D owners?

[ZKOKQ 984]

25 minutes ago, gman1986 said:

When the V4 version eventually gets realeased, will it be free for previous P3D owners?

Yes it will. Kudos to them for that.

[Ebs 114]

The last few posts have been great and they remind me of why I love avsim! 

These 'computer programmers with no customer service skills' weren't always like this you know? Back in the dark ages of the web they were all too happy to tell the world what they were working on and when it would be released. However, there would always be a couple of small problems that would set them back. Eventually, the release date (that they announced) came and went and the loyal, paying customers would LOSE THEIR MINDS and fire a torrent of abuse at the devs for missing the release date. Sometimes, this resulted in personal attacks (and worse in some cases) 

So, after all that,  the devs decided enough was enough and stuck to the "it's done when it's done(tm)" strategy. And, here we are. All because the customers can't behave (... Now how's *that* for a generalization? :D) 

[skelsey 765]

11 minutes ago, gman1986 said:

When the V4 version eventually gets realeased, will it be free for previous P3D owners?

Yes. 

On the the subject of communication: I've just had a look back in the forum. Andy posted some screenshots and a progress update officially announcing the v4 beta on August 17th and a video and further info on August 31st, ie about two weeks later. We're now about another two weeks further on from there.

Like I say - when there's something to show it gets shown!

SInce then - well, we've been testing. We've found some bugs and the devs have been working on fixing them.

7 hours ago, Nyxx said:

its about how FSL communicate. You say we are not paying customers because we don't have the v4 version yet. So many of us have bought the fsx version and or the P3d version if that does not make us customers of FSL, just what does? It's also a free upgrade so it's impossible for us to becoming a paying customer in your context! The v4 upgrade is free to your customers.

key word customers. 

As a customer and your analogies I will with due respect totally disagree because like I have said it's not about release dates it's about communication. 

But if the stance is am not a paying customer then I have no right to inquire about anything or respect a reply. 

That is not quite what I said. The point is that it is not like your car-buying analogy where you have put money down for an extant product and are awaiting delivery. It is much more like buying a book. Would you be writing to the author asking them for weekly updates on how the sequel is coming along on the basis that you'd bought the current one?

As I said - I'm not necessarily disagreeing that, as a general point, many developers' communication could be better (not just FSL). However, I do think it'll never be enough: like I say, Andy has actually provided an update roughly every two weeks since officially announcing the beta, and I don't doubt that if it was weekly people would still want more!

If there are any specific questions I'm more than happy to try and answer them within the limits of what I'm allowed to say, and I think in general those sorts of questions do get answered. The topics that get locked are the ones where people start complaining about pricing policy etc (where I refer you back to my previous point: nobody has bought an A320 for v4. They have bought an A320 for v3 and/or FSX. V4 is the sequel: when it is released, FSL have said it'll be given free to v3 owners, but that does not make it the same thing).

[GEKtheReaper 364]

8 hours ago, tooting said:

I'll agree  with David.  He's right.  You can see why David owns a successful business that understands the very basics of customer service.  The customer is king,  they maybe bitherling idiots but they are king.  The customer maybe wrong,  but they are king. They put food on your table,  and the roof over your head. What they also do is tell other people about your product whether it's good or bad.  it's all about how you deal with the customer and your perceived market image.

... best example ever! Thank you for taking your time to write it down.

FSL has the great advantage that they released a product so complex that nobody thought it would even be possible to acchieve. Unfortunately for us (the customers) regardles if we are talking about FSL or another DEV or business, there are almost none competing products on the market. So if you have no competition then the motto "the customer is king" no longer affects that bussiness.

I've said it also on theyr forum: IMHO these guys released a product beyond anyones imagination (but with a huge price tag). It is just because the customers need that bird from FSL (and they are willing to pay a huge amount of money for it), that they ask so much about the progress. Answering all those needing customers with the answer "it's ready when it's ready", is again IMHO, not the right answer, or maybe its not a proffessional answer from FSL.

So why did I mentioned the huge price tag? Simply: the more you pay, the more demanding you are (the expectancy is also higher).

Now I know they did not charge for v4 so why demanding it? This is another story....

 

 

[GEKtheReaper 364]

6 hours ago, skelsey said:

It is much more like buying a book. Would you be writing to the author asking them for weekly updates on how the sequel is coming along on the basis that you'd bought the current one?

Simon, if I'm alowed to disagree with you on this... If you buy a book (a great book) and the author announces he will be releasing a sequel to that one in a few weeks, then you will expect to get reading quite soon.

[mwilk 1,106]

42 minutes ago, GEKtheReaper said:

Simon, if I'm alowed to disagree with you on this... If you buy a book (a great book) and the author announces he will be releasing a sequel to that one in a few weeks, then you will expect to get reading quite soon.

You must not be a Game of Thrones fan.