Future of Online Flying

[Wise87 1,281]

I've been a Vatsim member since 2001. I always look forward to flying online when possible. Over the years I have seen the changes from software SB3, SB4, vPilot to quality ATC coverage. I have friends who I met on Vatsim and I still keep in touch with even after all these years.

The only downside I see with online flying is some of the pilots who do not take the whole online experience serious. I know many experienced online pilots who will no longer fly online because they feel Vatsim has gone down hill.  The pilots I'm referring to are those who:

- Ignore the winds for takeoff and landings and go against the flow of online traffic

- Come online to cause havoc with online traffic

- Don’t want to learn and get argumentative when you try to inform them that what there doing it wrong

- Talk more than necessary causing traffic distribution for others during busy events

- Not listening before transmitting causing missed radio calls

- Improper use of aircraft ICAO codes ßMajor factor when dealing with online flying and model matching

 

Don’t get me wrong, we all started from the bottom. What separates a serious online simmer from what I call the “Air Force Proud Steam bunch” is the preparation and learning prior to venturing into the online world. There are many YouTube videos and materials to bring even the most basic virtual pilot up to speed when it comes to flying on Vatsim.

I will continue to fly online when possible but there are some days I wonder why I even bothered. I look forward to any improvements to the Vatsim network.  

  

 

[bjratchf 80]

I've enjoyed flying in the events as they bring all the real positions that ATC has.

As a real pilot I'm often confused by NY_APP giving me takeoff clearance for Danbury- a class D airport with its own tower, which closed after 10pm back in that year. I can understand getting an IFR release with a "void if not off" time, but I remember getting admonished for not asking for taxi clearance... (Arooo?)

However it is very good to hear a voice unicom is in the works!

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

13 minutes ago, bjratchf said:

I can understand getting an IFR release with a "void if not off" time, but I remember getting admonished for not asking for taxi clearance... (Arooo?)

 

Yeah, it's not perfect, and those who are used to real world procedures have to cross our eyes from time to time, especially highly qualified and experienced airline pilots like you my friend!

For those who aren't aware, Brendan does this for a living with a major airline. He's a great friend and very talented pilot and flight simmer.

 

 

 

[bjratchf 80]

16 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Last year I wrote a lengthy post regarding flying online which numerous people told me helped them to think a little differently about flying online. This is a summary of that post, and I hope it will help at least a few people to look at things a little differently.

Wonderful post Dave!

 

I think you hit all the points here. One of the challenges VATSIM has is dealing with a user base with wildly different experience levels. When I was 10, thought flying NYC-Frankfurt involved "direct to frankfurt airport"- and wasn't acquianted with the finer points of SID/STARS, CDAs, EDCT times, etc... They can either create a barrier to entry by making it hyper realistic (with violations even, HA!)- but that would cut out a lot of people from joining and experimenting, experiencing. I think VATSIM has a really good middle ground met- during events the barrier to entry is high, but they also provide just enough documentation and support so the enthusiast will be on their feet quickly. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by n4gix
For goodness' sake, DO NOT quote the entire bloody post for your reply!

[bjratchf 80]

2 minutes ago, DaveCT2003 said:

 

Yeah, it's not perfect, and those who are used to real world procedures have to cross our eyes from time to time, especially highly qualified and experienced airline pilots like you my friend!

For those who aren't aware, Brendan does this for a living with a major airline. He's a great friend and very talented pilot and flight simmer.

 

 

 

Thanks Dave!

 

My hidden agenda for VATSIM though is that it eventually becomes a tool that people can use to become comfortable on the radio in the real world- and maybe turn them on to getting that instrument rating!

[ErichB 3,642]

8 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Last year I wrote a lengthy post regarding flying online which numerous people told me helped them to think a little differently about flying online. This is a summary of that post, and I hope it will help at least a few people to look at things a little differently.

 

Great post Dave.  Online flying and shared cockpit completely re-invents the experience of flightsimming.  I'm genuinely excited about the future as the community continues to grow in this regard.

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

4 hours ago, ErichB said:

Great post Dave.  Online flying and shared cockpit completely re-invents the experience of flightsimming.  I'm genuinely excited about the future as the community continues to grow in this regard.

Thank you my friend.  I love the way you put it, "Online flying and shared cockpit completely re-invents the experience of flightsimming".  Excellent!

 

[ukplane1 37]

There's up-to 40 events a week according to this link

https://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=73943

That's alot of guaranteed coverage.

 

 

[Bobsk8 12,679]

After reading this thread, I decided to give Avsim one more try. I was really into it years ago, and even met with some controllers at an Avsim convention in San Diego years ago. I downloaded V pilot, got everything working and sat at a few airports listening to the ATC. Last evening the only airport I could find with some controllers was Cleveland Ohio. I tried two other airports after they had one or two controllers , and found the audio, especially by the controllers to be beyond terrible. Now before anyone says it is my setup, I use audio with both my flightsim and PC functions all the time and it works flawlessly and is clear and  easy to understand. The audio from the controllers I listened to yesterday, sounded like they were two feet away from their mic. ( I used to be a broadcast engineer BTW) and that they had either  a mouthful of cotton candy or marbles. Now I flew in the real world with real ATC for decades, and never had a problem understanding ATC, so it's not that I don't know what to listen for. This morning I went to Charlottesville and wanted to do some touch and goes in the At6. The controller there was easy to understand but after 2 touch and goes, he signed off and no more ATC. Deja Vu all over again.  I then saw some controllers at Anchorage where I have flown in real life. I went up there, parked at PAWR and was told I needed a clearance to fly about 40 miles from PAWR to PAEN,so I set up my AT6, got on the radio and asked for Clearance, and I heard " mumble, mumble, sgrudi nuble ghdhdh muble. "  I asked for a repeat of the instruction, and got the same unintelligible mumbling.   Now this is with changing the settings in VPilot for audio. I just finally gave up, and signed off V Pilot . Now here is the real kicker, while listening to all this mumbling, the voices of the pilots in almost every case was crystal clear. 

 

 

Back to PF3,,,,   

[ShezA 176]

15 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

After reading this thread, I decided to give Avsim one more try. I was really into it years ago, and even met with some controllers at an Avsim convention in San Diego years ago. I downloaded V pilot, got everything working and sat at a few airports listening to the ATC. Last evening the only airport I could find with some controllers was Cleveland Ohio. I tried two other airports after they had one or two controllers , and found the audio, especially by the controllers to be beyond terrible. Now before anyone says it is my setup, I use audio with both my flightsim and PC functions all the time and it works flawlessly and is clear and  easy to understand. The audio from the controllers I listened to yesterday, sounded like they were two feet away from their mic. ( I used to be a broadcast engineer BTW) and that they had either  a mouthful of cotton candy or marbles. Now I flew in the real world with real ATC for decades, and never had a problem understanding ATC, so it's not that I don't know what to listen for. This morning I went to Charlottesville and wanted to do some touch and goes in the At6. The controller there was easy to understand but after 2 touch and goes, he signed off and no more ATC. Deja Vu all over again.  I then saw some controllers at Anchorage where I have flown in real life. I went up there, parked at PAWR and was told I needed a clearance to fly about 40 miles from PAWR to PAEN,so I set up my AT6, got on the radio and asked for Clearance, and I heard " mumble, mumble, sgrudi nuble ghdhdh muble. "  I asked for a repeat of the instruction, and got the same unintelligible mumbling.   Now this is with changing the settings in VPilot for audio. I just finally gave up, and signed off V Pilot . Now here is the real kicker, while listening to all this mumbling, the voices of the pilots in almost every case was crystal clear. 

 

 

Back to PF3,,,,   

There is something the matter today with VATSIM voice. I am in the air KIAD-KSFO and did find the voice of controllers at KIAD a bit difficult to understand.

I am online at LAX_CTR scheduled 12 noon PST. It is booked on our website :). Maybe you can try there with me.

Shez

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

12 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

and found the audio, especially by the controllers to be beyond terrible.

Happens real world too, just not usually with controllers, the offenders are the pilots. 

On VATSIM we're dealing with human beings. When I've experienced this, I've asked the controllers to tune their mics and adjust their microphone placement correcting and then tune their mics.  It's human nature to assume you're not the person with the problem, so it sometimes takes another pilot to tell the controller his mic sounds like it's in his butt.

On top of this, the audio code is dated but it's being re-worked as we speak.  That said, I rarely have a problem with hearing over/under modulated controllers - but it does happen.  Still, microphone tuning (Windows app, take less than a minute) resolves all sorts of issues. The huge problem I have isn't distorted comms, it's having to adjust my audio level from controller to controller. Again, Microphone tuning.

By the way, VATSIM refused to address microphone tuning with their controllers. I can't for the life of me figure why, but they did.

Thankfully, the VATSIM audio system is being completely replaced, which should prevent a lot of problems.

Oh, Bob?  It really seems like you were looking for a reason not to like VATSIM.  If I were you my friend, I'd just pass on it.  For me, there is nothing else to comes close, even with the occasional issue.

 

[Bobsk8 12,679]

53 minutes ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Happens real world too, just not usually with controllers, the offenders are the pilots. 

On VATSIM we're dealing with human beings. When I've experienced this, I've asked the controllers to tune their mics and adjust their microphone placement correcting and then tune their mics.  It's human nature to assume you're not the person with the problem, so it sometimes takes another pilot to tell the controller his mic sounds like it's in his butt.

On top of this, the audio code is dated but it's being re-worked as we speak.  That said, I rarely have a problem with hearing over/under modulated controllers - but it does happen.  Still, microphone tuning (Windows app, take less than a minute) resolves all sorts of issues. The huge problem I have isn't distorted comms, it's having to adjust my audio level from controller to controller. Again, Microphone tuning.

By the way, VATSIM refused to address microphone tuning with their controllers. I can't for the life of me figure why, but they did.

Thankfully, the VATSIM audio system is being completely replaced, which should prevent a lot of problems.

Oh, Bob?  It really seems like you were looking for a reason not to like VATSIM.  If I were you my friend, I'd just pass on it.  For me, there is nothing else to comes close, even with the occasional issue.

 

Well I just tried a VFR flight from Teterboro NJ to Bridgeport CT using NY Center as controller, and it worked out great, except for the thunderstorm on the ILS to RWY 06. The voice on the voice on the controller was excellent. I think what I will do from now on is listen to the controller for a bit, and if it is NG, find another area to fly from. This controller was excellent by the way, handling arrivals and departures from all Three NYC area airports and he was busy. 

[Bobsk8 12,679]

Wound up doing 4 Vatsim flights today, the last one into  KATL my home airport from KAUO, about an hour flight in the AT6. ATC was perfect, really enjoyed it....

[Bobsk8 12,679]

Update on my online flying experiences in the last two months. I started out with Vatsim, and since I am retired , I like to get up in the morning and go for a flight. The controllers are pretty nonexistent during the day, in the US on Vatsim. If I would find one, the odds are that by the time I set up a flight, with flight plan, sign on, get clearance, taxi and takeoff, within a short time the controller will sign off and i Have no ATC for the rest of the flight ( they call it Unicomm. ) This is the norm rather than the exception. So flying on Vatsim is pretty limited to after dinner hour, and even then, you will probably have only a couple of centers throughout the country that are active. I learned to look on Accusim and find out how long the center has been on line, before I set up a flight. If the center controller has already been on close to 2 hours, the odds are the controller will be signing off fairly soon, and then back to Unicomm. Even on the weekends, day time controllers are few and far between. By the way, in the past two months I have about 200 hours on Vatsim, and the bulk of it is in the evening from about 7:30 PM EST . 

I then decided to give Pilotedge another try. They have controllers starting at 8:00 am PST for 15 hours. Problem there is you are limited to either the LA area, or the Western area which they added in the last year or so. You get one controller normally for the entire flight and that controller switches you from one frequency to another, but the voice and the controller is always the same, which sort of ruins the immersion. I only fly A2A aircraft now, mostly the AT6, Comanche, and Skylane. Some  of the Western area in the Pilotedge area, requires a pressurized aircraft due to the mountainous terrain, , or you can't fly there. Besides being limited to one area of the US, and the cost of $20 a month, the other problem I personally had was copying the clearances. I have zero problems with IFR clearances on Vatsim and all my flights are IFR, but copying the clearance on Pilotedge, especially when they changed my FP, required me to write at a shorthand speed to get it down, and I don't know shorthand. There is no text option, so a couple of times, I just gave up trying to get the clearance down.   After a week or so , I decided that I much preferred Vatsim, and that is the only on line ATC I currently fly. 

So what do I do during the day, I use PF3. It gives me the exact same procedures that I got with Pilotedge, except I have different controller voices for each position. Start with ATIS, Clearance, Ground, Tower, Departure, Center, Approach, Tower and ground to the ramp. Don't have to fly with Unicomm, and I see traffic in the air and on the ground, which was rare on many online flights.  Right now I am on a flight in Norway using PF3, and this evening I will be on Vatsim in the Boston ARTCC. The best of both worlds in my opinion. YMMV.   

[tonywob 4,769]

Vatsim aside, I really enjoyed PilotEdge when I used it for a few months, but the problem was the hours it was manned. Being in Europe, it was only manned evenings and over night, which didn't make it too practical for me, especially at weekends.