Direct Flightplans

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Careful...

Contact approaches are very, very rare. Do a quick search on the net and you'll find quite a few strong opinions about them. I don't think you're going to find many (if any) operators that will allow them.

Visual approaches can also be requested, though they're usually assigned, simply because it's easiest for the controller (and to some degree the pilot), but also because they're usually only assigned when the weather will allow for them. If one is assigned, there really isn't a more permissive option, so it's not like you're going to hear someone request something else. On the other side of that, when cleared for a visual, you can certainly follow the guidance of a more restrictive approach (like the cues from the ILS) to assist you in the visual approach, in most cases. Those two things in mind, you're not really going to hear people request things when assigned a visual, unless the crew thinks the weather is sketchy, where they might request the ILS or other available approach.

A few months ago, I was asked to advise the weather and approach request. After I was finally able to pick up the weather from the ASOS, I noticed it was severe clear, advised that I had the weather and requested the visual. There's no rule/advisory against that. Sounds like the instructor was simply trying to differentiate the contact approach (which ATC will not and cannot assign), and the visual approach (which is the option that ATC will and can assign; but you can also request).

[Nick Dobda 24]

15 minutes ago, downscc said:

Could just be that they are coming from a different direction.  I don't think SWA uses contact approaches, it is more likely that ATC is handing out visual approaches, which is the norm.  On any day that it is VMC you can expect visuals even if you are on the same track as ILS because as long as you can maintain visual on the traffic around you ATC can space you closer together.

Where is the world are you Nick or what is the airport you are near?

My parents live under the 28L approach in KPIT (Pittsburgh) about 5 miles from the runway. Most traffic is lined up with the runway a few miles prior to flying overhead. Southwest planes come in lower, and are usually banking pretty good.

In fact it was my dad who noticed it - and he has no idea about any flight procedures. He just mentioned one day 'hey there's another Southwest plane, they're always coming in at odd directions compared to everyone else' 

Traffic isn't usually an issue in KPIT either.

 

In light of Kyle's post above, I should advise that my original post might be full of misinformation and apologize for that. I said that SWA might be requesting visual, they might have been assigned visual - its all speculative on my part.

In an effort to try and salvage some advancement of the original post, the point I was trying to make is that at an airport with no STAR approach, you can simply route to a point close to the airport and have ATC assign you the approach. In some cases where there is a VOR at the airport, you can route to the VOR, but realize you will have to break off that last leg at some point to set up for the final approach. This may also result in the necessity of learning how to control your descents and the various tools at your disposal if the approach you had planned changes along the way.

[downscc 1,327]

4 minutes ago, Nick Dobda said:

My parents live under the 28L approach in KPIT (Pittsburgh) about 5 miles from the runway. Most traffic is lined up with the runway a few miles prior to flying overhead. Southwest planes come in lower, and are usually banking pretty good.

In fact it was my dad who noticed it - and he has no idea about any flight procedures. He just mentioned one day 'hey there's another Southwest plane, they're always coming in at odd directions compared to everyone else' 

Traffic isn't usually an issue in KPIT either.

I just took a look and it appears that you have wx today, the SWA flight from Nashville landed a few hours ago lined up for an East approach apparently on the ILS.  For your own amusement, start watching the tracks on Flightaware to test your hypothesis.

[Nick Dobda 24]

11 minutes ago, downscc said:

I just took a look and it appears that you have wx today, the SWA flight from Nashville landed a few hours ago lined up for an East approach apparently on the ILS.  For your own amusement, start watching the tracks on Flightaware to test your hypothesis.

I immediately went to flightaware to look at tracks, and as you noted they are landing east so all the tracks I have access to show me nothing. I will keep an eye out though, I'll probably even listen on live atc when they are landing west again to hear what they are saying.

[Spin737 102]

3 hours ago, Nick Dobda said:

Might be helpful to understand how ATC plays a role sometimes -

Sometimes I'll file a route (vatsim) where the last waypoint on the route will be some fix (be it a VOR, or an intersection or whatever) that is some distance from the airport. If the area is controlled ATC will vector me towards an approach. If there is no ATC available, I will self vector to whatever approach I choose. You don't always have to have a route from wheels up to wheels down.

Also weather permitting you could request a visual approach in which its nearly a free for all to get it down.

Now - I admit I could be wrong, I don't know the ins and outs - maybe there's some IFR rule or something where what I've said above is false. If so please correct me.

I think you do need a route from wheels up to wheels down. You need to be filed to something from where an approach can start. You can’t rely on vectors in case of lost comms. 

 

You may or may not end up on your filed flight plan. 

[Christopher Low 5,331]

I think I need a tutorial to guide me through the flightplan setup process itself (so that I know what everything means), including what flight planner to use. Just saying "you need to create a flightplan" will not get me very far. Is Plan G capable of creating flightplans with SIDs and STARs? I have that installed, but I am not really sure where to start....

[downscc 1,327]

Just now, Christopher Low said:

I think I need a tutorial to guide me through the flightplan setup process itself (so that I know what everything means), including what flight planner to use. Just saying "you need to create a flightplan" will not get me very far. Is Plan G capable of creating flightplans with SIDs and STARs? I have that installed, but I am not really sure where to start....

Please download the AIM that I provided a link for you to earlier. Flight planning is just one of the multitude of topics covered. 

The place to start is to pick a origin and destination. You can use automated route planners but you won't learn much... best if you just jump in and start planning.  Sign up with Eurocontrol and get real aviation charts from them, it's free and in your case probably paid for by your taxes. Take advantage of books and manuals, assuming you don't have anything that makes hard difficult.  Do lots of reading then try it and ask questions if you have problems. 

[Dave_YVR 968]

 Exactly as been said to so many others over the years when they get into the NGX, RTFM (at least get your head in it to start figuring it out). The Tutorial that comes with the aircraft is also a huge help. Add on to that there are many good video tutorials on YouTube.  I assumed by originally asking about direct routes and leaving out STARS  etc that you had already some experience or working knowledge with the aircraft. 

[Nick Dobda 24]

16 hours ago, Spin737 said:

I think you do need a route from wheels up to wheels down. You need to be filed to something from where an approach can start. You can’t rely on vectors in case of lost comms. 

 

You may or may not end up on your filed flight plan. 

Excellent point, after some more research I have been routing wrong - nobody has ever called me on it. Interesting reading what to do in the event of lost communications under IFR conditions.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

16 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

I think I need a tutorial to guide me through the flightplan setup process itself (so that I know what everything means), including what flight planner to use. Just saying "you need to create a flightplan" will not get me very far. Is Plan G capable of creating flightplans with SIDs and STARs? I have that installed, but I am not really sure where to start....

I think I still have a few videos up on my youtube channel. Just search my name. Forewarning: they're not the greatest things in the world, but they should be passable. There's a generic guide to routing, and I also put up a three-part PFPX tutorial, as well.

[Christopher Low 5,331]

I think that I have made a little bit of progress. I used Dave's SimBrief route identifiers, plus EGAA approach charts and a couple of EGPD SIDs that were already in the FMC database, and cobbled together what appears to be a flightplan! The best way of checking if this works is to fly it, so that is what I am going to do when I get the chance (probably Friday afternoon). I realised that I could input various waypoints, and then fly DIRECT to them. I also noted that TRN (in Dave's SimBrief route) actually means the Turnberry VOR (and not TRANSITION as I had thought; that one confused me for a bit until I noticed it on the EGAA approach chart). The part of the flightplan that I am not certain about is getting on the final approach path to runway 25 at EGAA, but I will just have to see what happens!

I also noted that there seemed to be three approaches for the OY (NDB?) marker at EGAA in the FMC database (OY1/OY2/OY3). Can anyone tell me what the difference is? I do not see any reference on the approach charts for these three separate options.

[downscc 1,327]

Please remember to include a runway when you ask about an approach, one NDB could serve all runways with different approaches.  I am looking at the NDB 25 and see that there are different procedures for depending on aircraft class (A B C or D), which is determined by speed.  I recommend staying away from NDB approaches until you become familiar with the aircraft.

In general, the last waypoint in your route should be an IAF (initial approach fix, a point where the approach segment begins) for an approach.  Were I planning a flight to EGAA I'd pick BEL130/16 as my IAF and fly the DME arc to the ILS.  You can select BEL but then you will be flying the teardrop entry to final course, and I'd rather fly the arc.

By the way, in addition to the AIM our FAA also publishes an excellent Instrument Flying Handbook, a good place to learn about all things related to approaches.  You haven't seemed interested in gathering instructional materials, which I believe you really should do because there's only so much you're going to learn by asking questions in a forum.  There is enough study material on approaches alone to spend a full time day reading about.

[skelsey 765]

Hi Christopher,

Where to start?

Firstly, I would suggest that it is important to separate the tool (the FMC) from the material (the route). Otherwise it is rather like asking "how do I make a shelf with an electric screwdriver" -- you might well find an electric screwdriver useful for putting the shelf up, but designing the shelf in the first place is a completely separate process and you could well use other means to fix the shelf to the wall (nuts/bolts/spanner, hammer & nails, No More Nails etc) with the same overall outcome.

The FMC is a tool to help you navigate. Creating a route to navigate along in the first place is part of the flight planning process and there are numerous factors that go in to deciding on a particular route. As alluded to above, you may be better off establishing what is required in terms of planning an IFR route and how instrument procedures work before then establishing how the FMC can help you fly them. That said, as I believe you are UK based -- whilst the FAA documents you have been pointed to above contain lots of good information and, fundamentally, aeroplanes fly the same way on both sides of the Atlantic -- you should be aware that as far as aviation is concerned there is the way the FAA do things and then there is the way most of the rest of the world do things, and the twain are often quite different.

To answer your original question directly: terminal procedures (SIDs/STARs) are generally created for two reasons: to organise the flow of traffic in or out of an airfield, and to cut down on R/T loading (because rather than giving a long, convoluted series of instructions to each departing or arriving aircraft, ATC can simply say "cleared via the ABC1D departure"). The third advantage is that the routes are assessed against terrain and obstacles and therefore provide a safe and efficient way for aircraft to join the airways system (outbound) or an instrument approach procedure (inbound) in IMC.

If no such procedures are published, then it is essentially up to you to work out how you will join (or leave) the airways system (which in a real-life scenario would also have some input from ATC). There may be local procedures/departure routes (which may not be actual SIDs as they may not have been officially designed or have all the terrain protections of such but nonetheless will usually be largely sensible and designed to fit you in with the local traffic flow), or commonly you would just file direct to a convenient waypoint (often a VOR/waypoint located near the departure airfield). In reality, ATC may vector you around or coordinate you joining the airways system in some other way.

Inbound, again if there are no STARs published then you have to identify a suitable place to leave the airways system and join an approach. If the aerodrome in question has published instrument approach procedures then very often there will be a suitable IAF (Initial Approach Fix), which nine times out of ten will be a VOR, NDB or fix on the airways system (and frequently on or very near the airfield itself). If there are no instrument approach procedures published then obviously your arrival will have to be in VMC and again it is a question of finding a suitable nearby point to leave the airways system and navigate to your destination. In either case, on the ATC flight plan you would simply place DCT after this last waypoint.

Now, to move on to the question of flight planning...

Firstly, be very wary of routes from Simbrief. It is a fabulous tool and will generate an excellent operational flight plan for you. However, it is worth understanding that it was originally designed to create all the paperwork that an airline pilot would have/need in order to execute a flight, and it does a very, very good job of that: however, the original concept was the actually planning a route is outside the scope of what an airline pilot would normally do and therefore the assumption was that you already had a route to put in. Since then the tool has evolved with an auto-router etc: however, it is not all that smart and the routes which appear down the side or auto-populate in the flight plan field are simply the last five or ten routes that other users have entered. There is no validation of these routes or guarantee that they are accurate or suitable, and the route which it gave Dave is an example of this: someone created a route from Glasgow to Belfast, but it is not really correct. However, it will continue to pop up every time anyone puts in EGPF - EGAA!

There is a UK Standard Route Document which is part of the UK AIP and updated every AIRAC cycle. It is freely available from http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/srd/SRD_Spreadsheet.xls and gives you standard routings between all (licenced?) UK airfields and from all UK airfields to the FIR boundary. In your case, there are two routes published between EGPF and EGAA:

NORBO L186 TRN P600 BLACA DCT BEL

TRN P600 BLACA DCT BEL

The first route via NORBO comes with a note (Note 79). Looking up Note 79 in the "Notes" tab reveals that NORBO SIDs from Glasgow are available to jet aircraft only.

The second route also comes with a note (Note 402). Looking up Note 402 reveals that TRN SIDs are for non-jet aircraft only.

Thus, given that the NG is a jet aircraft, we must use the first route via NORBO. The route ends at the BEL VOR, which is also conveniently where pretty much all (at least all that I've seen) of the instrument approach procedures for EGAA commence. In real life, however, there is a very good chance that ATC would vector us directly to a final approach rather than having us fly the full procedure from the BEL (it's not very efficient as you can only really have one aircraft flying the procedure at a time whereas you can radar vector arrivals in to a sequence as little as 3NM apart on the ILS, wake separation permitting).

Finally, from a vertical navigation point of view, the SRD tells us that our minimum level is "MC" -- this stands for "minimum cruise" and the preamble to the SRD tells us that we can assume that we can use whatever the lowest level available on the airway(s) is. This information is available on a decent enroute chart (i.e. the Jepp enroute charts you get with Navigraph) or in textual format in the AIP; however in a 737 we're unlikely to be bothering the lower limits. Of more concern is the maximum level of FL245: in practice therefore our maximum level on this route is FL240.

From a planning perspective, having established the route you then need to come up with a navigation log with your fuel planning etc, which is where Simbrief etc can come in handy. 

Obviously it is an enormous subject and hopefully this gives you some insight. One course of action I might recommend would be to investigate VATSIM's Pilot Rating programme: if you find yourself a good Authorised Training Organisation the ratings are based loosely around the real flying syllabi and working through the P1-P5 ratings will cover all of these subjects and much more.

[Christopher Low 5,331]

Following a flightplan that is rigorously accurate with respect to the real world is not really what I am looking for. I just want a flightplan that the FMC can understand, and that I can get the aircraft to follow with the autopilot. If it gets me from A to B (and lined up with the runway on final approach), then it's job done as far as I am concerned.

[blaird22 35]

So here's my process as someone that is self-taught but still try to be as accurate as I can:

• Create a flight plan at simbrief.com (they have a flightaware link that gives you ACTUAL IFR routes and their frequency).  You can cross-check on SkyVector and FlightAware
• Save the flight plan, PLUS the PMDG flight plan.  Move the PMDG flight plan to the NGX folder (where the PMDG aircraft is loaded in SimObjects I believe)
• In the FMC (Route section) you can find this file under the 'Co-route'.  This will add most legs minus STARs and SIDs.  You can input these (and additional way-points) via the LEGS section in the FMC)
• I'd also recommend getting a current Navigraph update and make sure the aircraft, SimBrief, and any other services that use Navigraph data or else you'll get a lot of "Not in database" errors

From there you should be good.  Good luck!