777 captain crashes in small airplane

[michal 44]

Do you read FLYING?One of the editors writes about his good friend, a very experienced 777 pilot who bought himself a Lake Amphibian sea plane and crashed it on the very first day of trials. He was landing and apparently misjudged distance from water (apparently common error), flared too late and basically the hull is a total loss and the pilot will spend months recovering from his wounds. He did not purchase insurance. But anyway - here is my point - if landing on water I would rather have a technique that would assume some steady approach attitude and just wait for water. I think it is called "glassy water landing" where you don't have to do any flaring. Barry Schiff was demonstrating something like that on this known ABC video.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

[Guest]

And how would that prevent you from starting the procedure too late?In a Lake you're a few feet from the ground, in the a 777 maybe ten times as much.That's the error the pilot made, he forgot he was closer to the ground and didn't start his flare until the moment he'd have done it (visually) in that 777 but at that moment he'd already made his controlled flight into terrain.Had he used your procedure, would he have slowed his descent to the proper attitude in time? At what altitude would you initiate the final attitude?

[michal 44]

Landing on water without flare is accomplished by assuming certain speed, throttle position and pitch angle (usually almost zero or slightly positive). This will give you certain sink rate, say 100 fpm. And then you just wait until you hit water - immediately pull on the controls and retard throttle.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

In all my years in Alaska, I don't think I've seen such a maneuver, atleast not purposefully. The problem is the floats generally angle slightly down from the logitudenal-axis and the logitudenal-axis is usually slightly down from the horizon before they flare. To continue decent like that would dig the float-tips in and roll the plane over like an Alaska West Air Beaver did in Lake Hood.----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

[Guest Capn Tall]

I flew as an aircrew member on a Gruman HU-16 in an Air Rescue Air Force Reserve unit years ago and the procedure Michal stated was exactly how we did IFR or night water landings. We started at 1000ft and set up a constant 300ft/min rate of descent with power until we touched the water. On smooth water this made for a smooth landing. In the open sea with any waves it could get pretty interesting but in Air Rescue you "do what you have to do".Ed Weber a.k.a Capn Tall

[Guest jaapverduijn]

Greetings Jeroen!"(...) In a Lake you're a few feet from the ground, in the a 777 maybe ten times as much (...)"This, of course, is perfectly correct. However, the conclusion you draw from it is utter nonsense: "(...) That's the error the pilot made, he forgot he was closer to the ground and didn't start his flare until the moment he'd have done it (visually) in that 777 but at that moment he'd already made his controlled flight into terrain (...)"Total crap, mate. Mistaking his Lake for a 777 would have caused him to flare too HIGH, not too LOW. Your reconstruction doesn't make any sense.Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

[Guest]

My mistake. His mistake would cause him to flare high and stall out. End result is the same: one crashed aircraft.

[Guest ThrottleUp]

Would a radar altimeter have helped in this situation?Or do they not work too well on a water-surface?

[Guest DNelson]

I don't know how you could possibly know that unless you were sitting there beside him in the aircraft, or talked to him afterward. I doubt that either of those things happened.Besides, in the original article, it was stated that he had already made a number of successful water landings immediately before the accident. Seems pretty far-fetched to make several successful landings, then suddenly forget which plane you're piloting.

[michal 44]

>Besides, in the original article, it was stated that he had>already made a number of successful water landings immediately>before the accident. Did we read the same article?I went back to this article and the only thing it states that the accident occurred within 24 hours of him actually bringing the airplane to his home base after the purchase. Clearly the guys was checked out in this sea plane so it was NOT his first ever water landing. But if you read the article it is clear (at least to me) that this was his first landing on this unlucky day.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2

[Guest DNelson]

It took me a few days to get back to this thread. Things have been really crazy at work.Anyway, yeah, I read the same article. The one that, at the top of page 114, says, Jim began to practice with a series of stop and goes. They had all gone well until about the 10th attempt. He had just gotten airborne and had turned the airplane north toward his home on the lake. Seeing an open area of clear water with no boat activity, Jim couldn't resist. It was a beautiful day...He began a descent for another landing. At some point above the water, the world came apart...Seems pretty clear to me.

[ABE 0]

A few years ago while I was working for TWA. I was sitting on the jumpseat just behind the Captain while ferrying a 747 from LAX to LAS.We were coming on final, and according to me I felt that we were a little bit too high. My experience in landing was mostly Cherokees and Cessnas. I really had to restrain myself from tapping the Captain on the shoulder to tell him he was TOO high and to go around. I was very glad to check myself, my interference would have been disasterously uncalled for.Needless to say the Captain's landing was perfect.Abe

[Guest Ron Mashburn]

This is a problem for most any pilot flying heavy metal and then geting into a small GA aircraft... My neighbor fly heavy and also light aircraft... He tells me it's a problem he must always be careful of... I am a former CFII and fly with him often and I have to on occasion have remind him what he is flying... It is a problem they have to deal with often after leaving a heavy cotpit into a small one... It's the nature of the business...Ronny MashburnFormer CFII