Developer comparisons and critisism

[Guest Debosonic]

Dear AvsimI believe that I represent a few of my fellow simmers out there in my wish.I would like to see a new sub-forum established here at avsim were fs-add on customers such as myself can share their expereiences and comment regarding developers and their products in order to promote the good products on the market and safe-guard the customers from low quality add-ons that are unfairly claiming a share of the market.I am opposed to developer bashing, but I do support constructive critism of certain products that deserve it and also praise for the developers who have brought outstanding add -ons to the market.A sub-forum where comments from people can be posted comparing and discussing the various products would be very useful to us as simmers, as consumers and also to the developers and aspiring developers.Please fellow simmers post your comments on this.On this occasion I would also like to thank avsim for making our hobby possible. Without you it would be a lonely fs world.

[Guest danowat]

Thats a very thorny subject in my eyes, there are a number of people who would take the opertunity to heap a lot of critisim on certain developers, justified or not.It is very hard to distingush where constructive critism becomes "bashing" and vice-versa.It's a good idea in essence, but would be very difficult to moderate, plus there are almost as many people who have had bad dealings with certain companies as have had good.Dan.

[Guest panda234]

I agree with Dan. While I like the idea, in fact it's a great idea, I too can visualize it becoming a forum and an outlet for bashing. That being said, maybe some of the flowery praise that is heaped on some developers is a tilted the other way, leaving it up to us, the reader, to find the middle ground. Great idea, but tough call. Maybe implement one on a 30 day trial basis? Maybe part of the problem is that anyone who has an opinion about a particular developer has had experience with more than one. That's almost by definition, as otherwise how would you be able to draw a comparison. Therefore, anyone with an opinion is likely to be a "hardened" addict and will likely have a stronger opinion one way or the other than your more casual user. Just a thought...billg

[Paul Golding 92]

Personally, I'd love to see Avsim stand up to this challenge ;-)It would mean that developers would need to take part in this 'new' forum as well as their own individual support forums where of course all legitimate issues should rightly be raised. However, putting my 'consumer' hat on for a minute, I think the idea of a one-stop forum that visitors could go to and get an overview for a product, with input from both users and develpers, is a really great idea.In an ideal world, potential users should be able to go and read a few reviews first to get an idea at least of what is in the product (as opposed to what the hype suggests is in it), but this of course relies on enough reviews appearing quickly. The reality is that reviews can often take many months to appear. Digressing for a moment, I also think developers should be allowed to see and comment on reviews before they are published. The reason being that one FS site published a review on 'our' 727 stating that it seemed to have used the default EADI and EHSI gauges from the 737 in the EFIS version of the plane, whereas in fact it uses all new custom ultrasmooth GDI+ gauges with multiple modes including TCAS and displaying waypoints from any selected FS flightplan!!!! An error that has stil not been corrected either :-(How many developers would try to stop this kind of open forum from happening is another matter of course. Me, I'm happy that we (F1/DF)released what seems, from the forum posts at least, one of the most bug free releases ever. Other developers may not be so happy, but then they may not spend so long in beta testing or taking notice of what beta testers actually tell them!. Even so, I do think that potential users of any commercial product should be able to draw from the experience of others before parting with their credit card details. The result would of course be better finished products that don't leave users feeling like they paid to be beta testers......and no, I'm pointing fingers, it's just something I read fairly frequently.Providing any bashing was backed up with relevant screenshots as evidence and all developers refrain from commenting on other products as a matter of basic good manners (yes, I know I've had to say sorry more than once on this :-( ), this type of forum should at least be tried out.Having said all that, I'll bet there are some good reasons for not doing this......I just can't think of any at the moment.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[Holger 0]

Howdy,two points that come to my mind:1. In what way would such a sub-forum be any different from the current fora other than perhaps a bit more focus? Is the idea to have a sub-forum for each company?2. Anyway, these sub-fora already exist: they get created on-the-fly when you utilize the "Advanced Search" feature of this and many other forums :-outta Cheers, Holger

[Sonar5 3]

Paul Said:>Personally, I'd love to see Avsim stand up to this challenge>>It would mean that developers would need to take part in this>'new' forum as well as their own individual support forums>where of course all legitimate issues should rightly be>raised. However, putting my 'consumer' hat on for a minute, I>think the idea of a one-stop forum that visitors could go to>and get an overview for a product, with input from both users>and develpers, is a really great idea.>Hi Paul, and everyone else.I have to disagree with your statement.Thank goodness, Microsoft, whom without their program, some of these payware developers may not be around, doesn't share the same opinions as some of these developers.Legitimate issues, I feel, can and should be raised wherever the consumer CHOOSES to raise them.Having consumers badgered, coerced, and ridiculed for posting other than some high and mighty payware forum is the worst thing I've seen in this genre in quite a few years. It is wrong, and I see it more and more as developers themselves, or moderators at competing sites, or beta testers with a conflict of interest continually exhibit this type pf behavior.I wonder what this hobby would be like if Microsoft took the same actions as some of these payware minions do?There may be no Avsim, or any other sim site for that matter if the same tact was taken by them.Thankfully they carry enough integrity to not go as far as some of these payware developers currently attempt to do.I offer you a quote, maybe you can figure out who said it, and ponder this thought for a while."Also, of course, our users love to complain about idiosyncrasies within the system (which there are many, and of course they should complain about the issues)."Note the wording, "THEY SHOULD COMPLAIN ABOUT THE ISSUES."This is from the same person who admits on video that the last update in FS9 was to fix, quote "BUGS", not some pie in the sky maintenance update, or feature update, or whatever some developers try to call their bugs these days. :-lol :-lolThe Quote is from Steve Lacey. :-)http://www.steve-lacey.com/If Microsoft can admit their program is full of bugs, why can't some of these developers? The quote also doesn't say that issues can only be raised in a certain place, but other members of the same team have expressed on Video what members here do at Avsim, and what Avsim represents specifically to the genre.Developers have no say, IMHO, in demanding users, or POTENTIAL consumers voice their opinions or questions at only a certain forum instead of here at Avsim or another non-developer site.It is high time, IMHO, that developers take a lesson from Microsoft in this regard and come down off their egotistical high horses and respect members, users, potential users, and others that have a legal right to voice their opinions on their product, or their policies as long as they believe what they are saying is true. And the truth is a defense, as any Attorney can tell you.And if a consumer notes a bug, problem, or whatever without going to the developers preferred forum, in order to warn others who may be contemplating a purchase, it is their right to voice that opinion, and everyone should respect that right to do so, IMHO.I also don't think we need some special forum to do this, and here is why.For every problem, bug, or issue raised, there is in a lot of cases, multiple posts bragging about how great that product is.So if the developers or users want a seperate forum such as the original poster is proposing, then all the bragging posts, screenshot brags, etc.. should be required to go in there as well.I see this as an attempt to corral all the negative posts into one place and still allow all the positive posts to exist in their current form, hence a positive marketing campaign allowed to prosper while mitigating negative opinions and issues to one forum.Well, IMHO, you shouldn't be able to have it both ways. If you want the good to appear in certain places, then the bad, ugly, and truthful should also be allowed to exist.Unless you ban all commercial payware screenshots, and relegate all commercial payware posts to one forum. And that would not be logical or in the members best interest, and isn't that what this is about, the members best interests and NOT the developers.Paul also said:"Digressing for a moment, I also think developers should be allowed to see and comment on reviews before they are published."I also disagree with this, as it introduces a conflict of interest to those publishing a review, and introduces potential censorship of opinions. One can visit another sim site I know of where there appears alleged reviews that are basically marketing ploys to entice a user to buy a product, and in some cases contain affiliate links where compensation may be gained from a sale. If there are inaccuracies, any developer can issue a press release or a post in the forums advising the users why they disagree. Regards,JoeGrab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[Mike S KPDX 597]

"can share their expereiences and comment regarding developers and their products in order to promote the good products""support constructive critism of certain products that deserve it andalso praise for the developers who have brought outstandingadd -ons to the market"It may be only me, but I thought that AVSIM already supported these two activities across all their forums? I have never found a locked thread by any of the moderators in which discussions are mature, well thought out and polite; critical or praising.It is only when the tone becomes confrontational that it is noticed and acted upon by the AVSIM team, as it should be.I vote NO on the additional forum, again my opinion only.

[Jeff Nielsen 1,385]

Paul,I wouldn't mind seeing it also but I might disagree with the fact that other developers should or be forced to stand up to whatever contraversies that may arise.It sounds like a neat idea and we do surf and post in these forums, but to nail us down to where we now would almost have to constantly be monitoring 2 forums defeats the purpose of us having our own forum in the first place...LOL.I think individuals should be able to post what ever they want to say, good or bad. People are smart enough to dissiminate false information from truth. Any real issues would be made an actual news story anyways with a 3rd party reporter. Sometimes it's better to let your customers stand up for you than you try and fight it.In short; I've always said let the users post and say whatever they want to, just don't make me liable for having to monitor and reply to 50 million different posts...hehe. I hate paperwork if you know what I mean. Edit: 1 more thought: I don't like to see locks threads either. Unless a post causes a person to be physically harmed, privacy violated, violates any profanity or pornography rules, or breaks the law, then it should stand. In a proprietary forum of a developer, then the rules can differ, but a media outlet should be lock free excpet for the above mentioned items, IMHO.

[Paul Golding 92]

Hi Jeff>I wouldn't mind seeing it also but I might disagree with the>fact that other developers should or be forced to stand up to>whatever contraversies that may arise.I'm saying they'd be force to, though I imagine many would feel obligated in some way.>It sounds like a neat idea and we do surf and post in these>forums, but to nail us down to where we now would almost have>to constantly be monitoring 2 forums defeats the purpose of us>having our own forum in the first place...LOL.I guess most developers habitually monitor their own forums, plus the main one at both Avsim and Flightsim. Adding to this is of course a pain, but the point is that at the moment, newly released products sometimes get harsh comments posted about them in the main forum and are subsequently locked for product bashing. The idea of the original post is that users and potential users be allowed to be critical (allbeit backed up with proff of the failing in a product) in a seperate forum without facing overly protective moderators.>I think individuals should be able to post what ever they want>to say, good or bad. People are smart enough to dissiminate>false information from truth. Any real issues would be made>an actual news story anyways with a 3rd party reporter. >Sometimes it's better to let your customers stand up for you>than you try and fight it.Absolutely agree.>In short; I've always said let the users post and say whatever>they want to, just don't make me liable for having to monitor>and reply to 50 million different posts...hehe. I hate>paperwork if you know what I mean. >>Edit: 1 more thought: I don't like to see locks threads>either. Unless a post causes a person to be physically>harmed, privacy violated, violates any profanity or>pornography rules, or breaks the law, then it should stand. >In a proprietary forum of a developer, then the rules can>differ, but a media outlet should be lock free excpet for the>above mentioned items, IMHO.I guess from the forum owner point of view, allowing an almost free for all approach to a forum will see it soon become the sort of place that know would want to visit anyway, so why bother in the first place.Maybe just allowing a little more slack in the existing forums is a better approach.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[Paul Golding 92]

Hi Holger,>two points that come to my mind:>>1. In what way would such a sub-forum be any different from>the current fora other than perhaps a bit more focus? Is the>idea to have a sub-forum for each company?Goodness no!! What a nightmare that would soon be :-)>2. Anyway, these sub-fora already exist: they get created>on-the-fly when you utilize the "Advanced Search" feature of>this and many other forums You're right of course and as I said to Jeff, maybe a little more slack from the mods would achieve the desired result.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[Paul Golding 92]

Sorry Joe, you seem to have gone off at a somewhat lengthy tangent in another direction and I'm to busy to pick through it all.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[Paul Golding 92]

Ooops....hit the button twice!http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[Jeff Nielsen 1,385]

Probably Paul. I'm not sure there is an easy fix, but maybe your idea about letting the rules lax a bit for these (Avsim) forums, is the best approach, because they should be neutral anyways.I tend to think that sometimes it's best to let people post the negative stuff. The reason being (from a marketing standpoint) is that if you want someone to do something these best thing to so is to tell them not to do it. HEHE.Anyways, who knows what the best approach really would be.Thanks for the comments. :-)

[Sonar5 3]

>Sorry Joe, you seem to have gone off at a somewhat lengthy>tangent in another direction and I'm to busy to pick through>it all.>:-lol :-lol :-lol:-haherrr... It was a response to two of your own tangents paul. Whatever... Nothing new there.... To each their own :-lolEnjoy your busy time.... ;-)

[Paul Golding 92]

LOL!!! These forums can be such fun at times...........it's 2 am here and now I'm tired.http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg