Disc A/P @ 1000 feet for landing... tips?

[JoeDiamond 67]

58 minutes ago, Chock said:

Yup, that is absolutely true, it is indeed the problem of the controllers to provide adequate spacing for anything they clear for a line up, or any other steering direction for that matter, but it's probably not going to win you many friends in the tower if you don't do things in a suitably expiditious manner which fits with the general rhythm of operations.

Perhaps things are done differently on your side of the pond.  In the States flying from Vref from the FAF inbound is entirely normal, VMC or IMC.  We are required to be fully configured by 1000 AFL so dropping the gear four miles out is cutting it a bit close.  Stabilized approaches are a big thing over here.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

7 minutes ago, JoeDiamond said:

Perhaps things are done differently on your side of the pond.  In the States flying from Vref from the FAF inbound is entirely normal, VMC or IMC.  We are required to be fully configured by 1000 AFL so dropping the gear four miles out is cutting it a bit close.  Stabilized approaches are a big thing over here.

Yeah, you have to always keep in mind that their controllers, for some reason, are required to maintain sep at all times for you. Over here, once you call traffic in sight, you're the one who maintains the separation with the controller providing supplementary corrective action (you choose your speed, and if the controller senses danger, they'll ask you to change the speed or send you around, etc.). Over there, it's positive control at all times, even when you're visual...for...reasons that someone will likely blindly attribute to 'safety' since you can't ever argue with 'safety'...then you'd be anti-safety, and you aren't anti-safety, are you?

This is also why they magenta line from DEP to DEST - it's easier on the controllers to provide the aforementioned control, and really helps out the CFMU run all of its calculations (the latter makes sense, given the amount of coordination between the various control centers in each country and in Maastricht).

[Chock 17,769]

11 minutes ago, JoeDiamond said:

Perhaps things are done differently on your side of the pond.  In the States flying from Vref from the FAF inbound is entirely normal, VMC or IMC.  We are required to be fully configured by 1000 AFL so dropping the gear four miles out is cutting it a bit close.  Stabilized approaches are a big thing over here.

Yup, that could indeed be the case, and of course there are airline-specific procedures too. I've kind of got the impression that the cheapy airlines (i.e. Ryanair and Easyjet) are telling crews to get it all done a bit later on approach so they're not using high thrust settings on a long final to overcome the drag of the dunlops and landing flaps for any longer than feasible.

[Ephedrin 418]

15 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

Yeah, you have to always keep in mind that their controllers, for some reason, are required to maintain sep at all times for you. Over here, once you call traffic in sight, you're the one who maintains the separation with the controller providing supplementary corrective action (you choose your speed, and if the controller senses danger, they'll ask you to change the speed or send you around, etc.). Over there, it's positive control at all times, even when you're visual...for...reasons that someone will likely blindly attribute to 'safety' since you can't ever argue with 'safety'...then you'd be anti-safety, and you aren't anti-safety, are you?

lol... I love it how you express your endorsement with our admired control freaky EU :D

[skelsey 765]

1 minute ago, Chock said:

I've kind of got the impression that the cheapy airlines (i.e. Ryanair and Easyjet) are telling crews to get it all done a bit later on approach so they're not using high thrust settings on a long final to overcome the drag of the dunlops and landing flaps for any longer than feasible.

Noise (on the ground) is also a factor, plus 160 kt to 4DME (~1200ft aal) is a very common speed restriction. No ATC speed control is permitted inside 4 DME (UK).

I can't think of any airline that wouldn't encourage its pilots to fly the aircraft as efficiently as is safely possible in whatever conditions prevail and in my experience most airline pilots I know pride themselves on using their skill and experience to ensure a safe and efficient flight without any unnecessary delays, wastage of fuel or creating excessive noise on the ground -- that is, after all, part of the commercial responsibility an airline pilot has. Thus, sure, they will aim to fly CDAs and avoid flying excessively conservatively (i.e. dragging it in level for miles and miles with gear, flap and loads of thrust on). That said, all airlines have strict stable approach policies and these usually take the form of a mandatory requirement to be fully configured, on speed, on path and with engines spooled and all checklists completed by 1000ft aal. This is tight but generally doable with a 160 to 4 restriction. Some may permit some latitude (generally around speed -- something along the lines of "speed within X knots of Vref and reducing, provided all other criteria are met") at 1000ft in VMC in which case the 'hard' gate will be at 500ft where if you haven't got the speed back and engines spooled a mandatory go around must be flown, but from what I hear the trend is very much towards insisting on being fully stable in all cases by 1000ft whether IMC or VMC.

I am almost certain that is the case at Easy, and being something which can be very easily monitored there is almost nil chance of a crew knowingly continuing without meeting the stable criteria as the aeroplane will be telling the OFDM department about it literally as soon as the wheels hit the runway. Runway excursion is a perennial safety topic and almost every such incident follows an approach that didn't meet the stable criteria, so to my knowledge the airlines are exceptionally hot on monitoring compliance.

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

16 hours ago, Chock said:

ATC at major airports are gonna love your 737 tootling in at Vref whilst still four miles from the threshold at 1,500 feet with a big queue of airliners all at 160+ knots up your tailpipe being told to go around lol.

Yeah your right, I don't know a darn thing about this stuff even though I'm based at one of the busiest airports in the world.

Give me a break....

Besides, most if not all airlines require you to be stable and configured prior to the FAF. Or 1000 ft on a visual.......most airlines.  stable doesn't mean just starting to get the airplane in the final landing config.....it means already in the landing config, on speed and without any large thrust or pitch changes needed.

These are usually around 5 miles out.

 

Also, you do realize that controllers space airplanes out accordingly to allow for everyone to slow down at the FAF?

I'll throw you a bone though....ill correct myself, be stable by 1250 ft.

[Chock 17,769]

38 minutes ago, ahsmatt7 said:

Yeah your right, I don't know a darn thing about this stuff even though I'm based at one of the busiest airports in the world.

Give me a break....

Didn't say you don't know anything about it, that's hardly likely to be the case for someone with an ATP ticket. I was merely pointing out that it's not really going to be acceptable to be at Vref when still four or five miles out when a lot of traffic is coming in. Of course yours was a general comment to help the OP, which is why I stuck lol on the end of my comment in relation to it.

Anyway, hopefully the Robert (the OP) is taking the overall gist of the many replies on this thread about what is necessary to avoid the tendency to over-control, i.e. chasing the needles, rather than addressing the trends.

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

Just now, Chock said:

Didn't say you don't know anything about it, that's hardly likely to be the case for someone with an ATP ticket. I was merely pointing out that it's not really going to be acceptable to be at Vref when still four or five miles out when a lot of traffic is coming in. Of course yours was a general comment to help the OP, which is why I stuck lol on the end of my comment in relation to it.

Anyway, hopefully the Joe (the OP) is taking the overall gist of the many replies on this thread about what is necessary to avoid the tendency to over-control when chasing the needles rather than addressing the trends.

My apologies....the lol made it come off as arrogance. Makes a lot more sense now.

[Chock 17,769]

1 minute ago, ahsmatt7 said:

My apologies....the lol made it come off as arrogance. Makes a lot more sense now.

Nah, the 'lol' was me visualising a plane coming in at just above stall with a bunch of 747s up its back end, not your comment, I'm sorry if you thought it was directed at you, it certainly wasn't the intention. That's the trouble with the internet, some stuff just doesn't translate. Anyway it's all grist to the mill, so long as the OP gets his runaway jet under control, it'll be mission accomplished.

[ahsmatt7 1,199]

18 minutes ago, Chock said:

Nah, the 'lol' was me visualising a plane coming in at just above stall with a bunch of 747s up its back end, not your comment, I'm sorry if you thought it was directed at you, it certainly wasn't the intention. That's the trouble with the internet, some stuff just doesn't translate. Anyway it's all grist to the mill, so long as the OP gets his runaway jet under control, it'll be mission accomplished.

Heres something to laugh at.

In the summer, everyday around 2 to 3 pm. There's a cirrus thst comes into ORD. Talk about clogging things up.

It's a sight to see.

It's all water under the bridge! Thanks for clearing every thing up. Once again, my apologies for snapping at you.

[Chock 17,769]

Here's another one to laugh at. I was controlling the aircraft at Camphill years ago - that's a glider only airfield, it has a sign near the windsock which indicates that too, specifically for aircraft in the circuit, just in case anyone is in any doubt about it - so anyway, I see a small single engine aeroplane looking like he's turning onto final for the field, so I flash the signal lights to wave him off, and also announce on the radio that he shouldn't land as it's a glider only site, but he still keeps on coming and now it looks like he's definitely going to land, so as a last resort I get out of the old land rover which we used to use as the 'tower' since it had the radio in it, I give him the wave off signal by hand, and he waves back at me thinking I'm just letting on to him and lands anyway. So much for clearances. 

[JoeDiamond 67]

1 hour ago, Chock said:

Nah, the 'lol' was me visualising a plane coming in at just above stall with a bunch of 747s up its back end, not your comment,

Vref for a 737-800 or -900 at a typical landing weight is faster than just about everything else out there, including the heavies.  If anything they are in our way, not the other way around.

[skelsey 765]

2 hours ago, Chock said:

I was merely pointing out that it's not really going to be acceptable to be at Vref when still four or five miles out when a lot of traffic is coming in.

I'm still slightly confused by this. 

When would you consider it appropriate to reduce to Vref (+additive) bearing in mind you need to be fully configured and on speed with engines spooled and the landing checklist complete by 1000R and ATC are not permitted to impose any speed control within 4DME?

Most guys I know start winding the speed back at around D4.5 in order to actually start decelerating by D4 so as to be able to make the stable approach criteria.

[Chock 17,769]

8 minutes ago, skelsey said:

I'm still slightly confused by this. 

When would you consider it appropriate to reduce to Vref (+additive) bearing in mind you need to be fully configured and on speed with engines spooled and the landing checklist complete by 1000R and ATC are not permitted to impose any speed control within 4DME?

Most guys I know start winding the speed back at around D4.5 in order to actually start decelerating by D4 so as to be able to make the stable approach criteria.

You said it yourself, you wind the throttle back some distance out, but it's not like standing on the brakes of a car obviously, i.e. depending on the aeroplane type, maybe be at 160 knots at say 1,600 feet you start throttling back and getting everything like the gear sorted etc, and it'll be slowing down to a suitable speed as it continues the approach. I don't mean because you want to be at Vref a bit closer in you wait until that closer in point before you start doing something about it, obviously. 

[Stearmandriver 2,205]

4 hours ago, JoeDiamond said:

Vref for a 737-800 or -900 at a typical landing weight is faster than just about everything else out there, including the heavies.  If anything they are in our way, not the other way around.

This is a solid point.   A while back on approach into JFK on a gusty day in an ER,  we were absolutely eating up the preceding 777.  Approach kept asking us to slow to final and we kept explaining we were already there.   They finally granted us a close in sidestep to the parallel to save us a go - around.   ;-)