Interesting topic.... the comments are even more interesting

[snglecoil 1,828]

13 minutes ago, torium said:

Dovetail games vision is “to become the No.1 Simulation Entertainment company in the world.”

Why?

Yes, Why? That statement above seems like great marketing material...but almost every company says they want to the the No. 1...whatever... company in the world. No. 1 in what? Quality? Innovation? Customer satisfaction? Revenue generation? It's not something that you nor I can answer for Dovetail...but their answer (in the form of a delivered product) will either resonate with me as a consumer or not.

My point in all this is that one of the prevalent perceptions of Dovetail's "Why" is to make a decent sim and then make profit by selling a ton of DLC...right, wrong, or indifferent. I think the reaction you are seeing in all the negative or guarded comments, is the fear that at the end of the day, FSW will be a decent, accessible, and mostly enjoyable sim that ultimately doesn't really move flight simulation forward in any significant way. But that's just my perspective.

[torium 207]

1 hour ago, snglecoil said:

..... that ultimately doesn't really move flight simulation forward in any significant way.

This is interesting. I really want to hear your ideas about what wishes you have for FSW. What specific news you think may bring FSW forward compared to existing flight simulators.

[mattyshigh 3]

FSW is ok and that is the problem, it is just... ok. There is nothing really new to blow you away and really, what are they going to do to change that? Truesky was a great major new addition but that has been really it. Other simulators will add Truesky in time if this feature proves to be a major game changer. This will be probably true of any other innovations that FSW add in the future .Take rain drop effects for example. This was quickly adopted by other flight sims due to it's popularity.

The point is DTG are great competition if nothing else. In this respect I welcome DTG into the flightsim world. We have loads of choice right now and this is exactly what we need to move the hobby forward. This and lots of new users. We are finally having some money thrown at serious development.

I think most steam users are dubious due to experiences with Train Simulator and the ridiculous amount of DLC involved. There are genuine concerns that this business model could be adapted for Flight Sim World. That is of course DTG's choice as a company to make. However, "early access" should not be a get out of jail free card for everything. We are effectively paying beta testers and expect probably a little more before having DLC chucked at us.

[snglecoil 1,828]

2 hours ago, torium said:

This is interesting. I really want to hear your ideas about what wishes you have for FSW. What specific news you think may bring FSW forward compared to existing flight simulators.

Well, since you asked...

1. Enhanced terrain rendering approach. Vector and land class based texture system used now is still a viable foundation, I think. I would love, however, to see the the ground environment rendering scaled to allow a significant increase in detail as you approach the ground. But even at flight altitudes, textures should be adjusted appropriately to believably accommodate any object that overlays it. A road shouldn't simply cut through a texture of a housing development. It should look like the road (which looks like a road and not just a gray line) belongs there. Let your imagination go wild here. Some of the current 3rd party airports do an great job with the detail in the airport environment. How great would it be to take that sort of visual fidelity and figure out a way to programmatically apply that to "generic" airport environments? ...or to any ground environment for that matter, but hey, this is a flight simulator after all. And make no mistake, I have no illusion as to the difficulty of solving this item
2. Global dynamic lighting engine. Of course that has already been implemented effectively in another sim, so FSW would simply be catching up.
3. Regular systematic updates of current navigation and airport data (which personally I wouldn't be opposed to as paid DLC/subscription)

But honestly, my wishes are not the significant question. I ask in all sincerity, why would a seasoned flight simmer choose FSW over existing offerings if it does nothing to significantly differentiate itself much less advance the state of flight simulation? That's the importance of asking Dovetail's "Why". Where does it see itself in the market place? If all it does is produce a decent, accessible, and mostly enjoyable sim that ultimately doesn't really move flight simulation technology forward, BUT introduces a bunch of new people to the joy of the hobby, that's not a failure. It's just a different "why" than some may have hoped.

[torium 207]

1 hour ago, mattyshigh said:

I think most steam users are dubious due to experiences with Train Simulator and the ridiculous amount of DLC involved. There are genuine concerns that this business model could be adapted for Flight Sim World. That is of course DTG's choice as a company to make. However, "early access" should not be a get out of jail free card for everything. We are effectively paying beta testers and expect probably a little more before having DLC chucked at us.

Good post, mattyshigh, but:
This is what I do not understand. Is it different with, for example, P3D? Do you think the P3D is a fantastic simulator right "out of the box"? Without addons (DLC)?

Dovetail has repeatedly explained what their strategy is. Among other things, that 3rd party developers will be the lifeblood of FSW. And 3rd party developers mean DLC. It will create innovation and we will see many new ideas, including Dovetail, never could have predicted. Personally I want a large amount of DLC to choose from (freeware and payware). 
The important thing is that we have an active developer (Dovetail) who says they will help 3rd party developers to "plug" innovative ideas into the core sim (that 3rd party developers do not need to "hack" into the core sim, ref. FSX ). It has already happened in their collaboration with 3rd party developers.

The fundamental question then becomes: What should be included in the core sim?

[flyforever 267]

.....why would a seasoned flight simmer choose FSW over existing offerings if it does nothing to significantly differentiate itself much less advance the state of flight simulation?

 

FSW may be the only "complete" and the lowest cost sim for first time buyers.

P3D is great for experienced and deep pocketed simmers.

So it leaves us with the old FSX-SE, xplane, and AF2.

 

 

[torium 207]

34 minutes ago, flyforever said:

FSW may be the only "complete" and the lowest cost sim for first time buyers.

Important and good point. Dovetail has previously done a thorough analysis, and concluded that a large number of "users" quickly gave up the flight simulator attempt. The learning curve became too steep.

I started with subLOGIC Flight Simulator II for Commodore 64, and has therefore gained some experience over time. Despite that, I am very pleased with FSW's "cold & dark" function. Much more fun to learn a new aircraft,  compared to reading pdf files. Such small features are especially good for beginners.

[HiFlyer 9,359]

24 minutes ago, torium said:

Important and good point. Dovetail has previously done a thorough analysis, and concluded that a large number of "users" quickly gave up the flight simulator attempt. The learning curve became too steep.

I've had this conversation a number of times, again just a day or so ago.

Technical flyers often seem not to believe it, or if they do, they'll often respond to the effect that everyone should aspire for a level of proficiency matching theirs, often seeming to forget the years that it took them to achieve that, or to acknowledge the relative scarcity of that level of interest in a world where people also have jobs, children, other interests, and an increasing lack of spare time.

The current level of simulation (as I have said before!) has a learning curve that is not only steep, but is actually becoming steeper as enthusiasts add greater and greater detail to the point where there's essentially (almost) no entry point for truly new, or simply more casual users of the sort who visit airshows and air and space museums by the millions, and would love the experience of piloting a plane, without necessarily having to almost become a real pilot themselves to do so!

Not all sims have to be aimed exclusively at the current market, or follow paradigms defined by how things were previously done.

As for DLC, I don't know about anyone else, but as a point of sheer logic, I use the words Addon and DLC pretty much interchangeably, and have no idea why one is apparently ok for the last zillion years, and the other is practically anathema......

Apparently Trainsim Ptsd, or something........ 

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

59 minutes ago, torium said:

Important and good point. Dovetail has previously done a thorough analysis, and concluded that a large number of "users" quickly gave up the flight simulator attempt. The learning curve became too steep.

That may be part of it, but the lack of "entertainment" is really what makes most flight sim purchases a "one and done" expenditure. Sure, DCS and TacPack focus on weapons and combat, but the main flight sims are just about piloting an airplane, which is a big yawner to the demographic that purchases video games.

[himmelhorse 1,276]

Hello all,

Lets summarise all of this by alluding somewhat to pracines comment. "you don't owe me anything either but it got your attention and it was easy" and applying it to DTGs original press release.  

I think it has worked far beyond their expectations as far as publicity is concerned.

Just let em go guys ... They will either succeed or self destruct all by their own selfs.

My only further comment is that HOPEFULLY, they are really listening to these comments and that we do indeed end up with a really worthwhile contender in the Sim stakes. If indeed they do fail, what are we actually losing. We have 2 ever developing and very good 64 bit platforms (with or without DLC/Add-ons) with Aeroflyfs2, FSW, DCS and another unknown Aerosoft contender also lurking in the background.

Again, I state that I am an owner of FSW and do not use it, but I do visit periodically to check it out. I seriously doubt I will use it either until we get at least some tubeliners to play with.

Regardless of our sim preferences, NONE of them are perfect and all are in constant development other than the Microsoft efforts, of course, and even those are still being used constantly.

Nothing to lose here and everything to gain. Lets quit the bitchin and enjoy what we have, knowing that in twelve months, all will have changed anyway.

Regards to all

Tony

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

I have to take issue with this "there is nothing to lose" argument. Up until recently, XP11 was a low risk purchase, because many if not most of the addons were developed by the community and were essentially freeware. Of course, that situation has changed over the past year, so now an immersive experience  with either XP11, P3d4 or FSX are all highly dependent on purchasing large numbers of payware addons. The base sims may cost the user $60 US, but that cost is trivial when compared to the total cost of additional 3rd party software. It's tough enough for me financially to keep up with P3d "addon creep", but now I have to consider both that expense and the expense of maintaining XP11 in tip top shape. Even though I purchased FSW when it first was released, I can't see adding an additional wave of 3rd party addons to the mix. It just doesn't make any sense for me from a money standpoint. Maybe you guys are a lot more wealthy than I am.

[flyforever 267]

I had mentioned some months ago in some forum that FSW starts out with ORBX Global textures, better GA flight modeling, and True Sky, all for the low entry price of $25.00. And, according to DTG, they are not finished yet.

I am highly confident that as soon as the SDK is out, planes -large and small--will come out of the shoot.

The moving target syndrome is a terrible thing for many(younger) folks who have not lived through the long and slow history of flight simulation development.

 

 

 

[himmelhorse 1,276]

Jay,

Mate,

I was not talking financials here with that statement.  I am speaking specifically of the fact that we all have our platform favourites. Staying with them and watching the others develop costs nothing.

Swapping favourites is the expensive part and nobody will ever deny that fact.

For me ... I have them all (platforms that is) but only ORBX Australian airports, Global, and Australia.  I then added Ifly 737 to the  P3dv4.1 addon mix. That was an experiment I have to admit. None of the other platforms have I added to, except for FS2004 which is fully and extensively added on to.

Further to that, I will state that FSW is NOT a mainstream competitor YET. It may never be, but, and this is a big but, DTG state very categorically that they are in the game for the long haul. To stay in the game they HAVE to listen to the community who are existing and potential buyers. If they do this, I have no doubt that they will eventually become contenders. 

I simply wish them all the best and in the meantime, I have upgraded (again) to FS2004 and downgraded to Win 7 (yesterday) with profound thanks to Microsoft Windows 10 which through sheer guts and determination have finally succeeded in destroying FS2004 for me (and obviously others if one goes by recent topics about it) Others tried but failed miserably in comparison. I would not have minded so much if the Ba.....ds had a compatible flight sim in the mix. Such is progress ... I hate it LOL

Regards

Tony

[A32xx 129]

9 hours ago, jabloomf1230 said:

That may be part of it, but the lack of "entertainment" is really what makes most flight sim purchases a "one and done" expenditure. Sure, DCS and TacPack focus on weapons and combat, but the main flight sims are just about piloting an airplane, which is a big yawner to the demographic that purchases video games.

Well said Jay, you've made the defining statement of this whole debate:

"the main flight sims are just about piloting an airplane, which is a big yawner to the demographic that purchases video games."

We are all used to having our 'free flight' mode in which we can go wherever we please, in the aircraft of our own choice, but to the vast majority of gamers 'free flight' means 'Nothing To Do' at worst or 'Freestyle Practice' at best, but 'Practice' for what exactly? There isn't anything 'To Do' in any current non-combat flightsim. It's way past time that flight sims had built-in career modes and other challenges of the kind that Racing sims have had for years.

Now I doubt that any 'serious' flight simmer would want to race through city streets at insane speeds, causing AI cars to crash in order to win the race, we are all more responsible and considerate people than that.

But if the challenges were more about general flying skill and mastery of a particular aircraft controls and systems, I know we would be all over it in a flash, and so would the general gaming public. This in turn would attract the attention of other more mainstream game developers...

and who knows where that may lead?

[skelsey 765]

1 hour ago, A32xx said:

We are all used to having our 'free flight' mode in which we can go wherever we please, in the aircraft of our own choice, but to the vast majority of gamers 'free flight' means 'Nothing To Do' at worst or 'Freestyle Practice' at best, but 'Practice' for what exactly? There isn't anything 'To Do' in any current non-combat flightsim.

Depends how you view it, doesn't it?

You could view it as 'nothing to do' or you could view it as 'do anything you want'. A little imagination is all that is required, though I accept this is a rare thing these days. The possibilities are literally limitless, as opposed to working through a few set levels and then what? The game is 'complete', there's nothing left to do and off it goes on to a pile of discards.

In any event, MSFS has had missions, adventures, challenges, lessons and rewards for completion (in the form of 'licences', badges etc) since at least FSW95, so what's the new concept?